I’m not misinformed. I’m well aware the teacher salaries in my town are considerably above average. When I pay my property taxes, I (of course) wonder whether the salary levels are justified.
My main point was the implication that energy credits aren’t paid for by lower/middle class taxpayers because these people “likely” pay no taxes. Do all your relatives that teach pay taxes? I’m betting the answer is “yes.” I’m betting they are taxpayers.
Pretty much everyone, at every level, pays more taxes than they think is fair. I’m no exception. I won’t turn the thread political. I was just rebelling a little against the notion that a Tesla buyer needs or “deserves” a $7,500 tax break. It’s all legal of course, but someone else has to pay for that. “Someone” includes you, me, and your teacher relatives. I would never dispute that Teslas are way cool.
I think that it only makes sense to take a tax credit that is available to you. The IRS certainly won’t protest if you don’t take it but given how much we see go out the door each quarter in our business tax vouchers I certainly don’t feel badly about it.
That said, the tax credit didn’t play any role for us in terms of purchasing a Tesla - reading about the car got us interested and then the test drive we took absolutely, 100% sold us on it. For anyone who hasn’t done so, I encourage looking up the closest Tesla sales center and taking a test drive of your own. Reading about it is one thing but actually driving one is pretty amazing.
Agreed. We would be a sucker if we didn’t. I take every tax break available to me.
Exactly. That is the strongest argument against the credit. Like most taxes and tax breaks, it is designed to influence behavior. For Tesla buyers, I question whether it is wise use of tax dollars. Others may disagree of course, but it didn’t influence your behavior.
While it didn’t influence my personal purchase decision - I also don’t want to speak for others. Keep in mind that there are other Tesla models available at a lower cost where the $7500 tax credit would have represented a larger portion (and discount) off the purchase price.
From what I have seen on the Tesla user forums there is a segment of the owner population that may have stretched just a little bit to acquire their Tesla. I think that this is precisely the segment where the tax credit may have had a positive impact. As to how big that segment is and how much of an impact the tax credit mattered - I really have no way to gauge.
When I got residential solar credits totaling $15K a few years ago (half Federal, half State) I did not have the slightest qualm about getting back a pittance of the mountain of cash I have paid them, way way more than my “burden.” Are you kidding?
Boy, are you sensitive. I used the phrase “Are you kidding” in the generic sense, emphasizing my lack of any hand-wringing whatsoever about getting a few pennies back on the ton of dollars that I have directed that way. “You” was directed to the reader, not you personally.
I don’t think I’m very sensitive. I had clearly stated all of us would be suckers if we don’t take every tax break available. So you your retort sounded like it was arguing with something.
I’m glad we’re all in agreement. But I trust we can agree that taking advantage of a legal but possibly ill-conceived tax break is not the same as agreeing that the tax policy itself is wise. Smoke 'em if you’ve got 'em.
Just so you know what’s waiting for you on the other side of the curve…after 30 years of Corvettes, M3’s, and a few others of similar ilk, I now own a minivan, an SUV and am jonesin for an early 60’s beetle. I also just found myself at a Bob Evan’s eyeing the “Over 55 menu”…the minivan staring at me from the parking lot. I’m not yet wearing white socks with sandals, and my wife is pretty hot, so it’s not over yet…
It’s as if the internet brings up Hitler for atrocities, Buffet for financial brilliance, single mom’s to typify the American struggle and we have Boiled Frogs for stories about conditioned responses.
Oddly, of all of these, The Buffet worship has always bothered me and I couldn’t figure out why, until now.
Buffet does not make anything. He may enable others to make things. I am not pretending for a minute that Berkshire Hathaway represents anything other than a well run organization that makes money for it’s investors. But it hasn’t ever created much of anything new. So, I don’t get all the Buffet worship- he’s really pretty damn boring.
Musk and Company, on the other hand, put themselves out there in a way that few would ever survive. As a matter of science, using electricity to power cars appears to be an idea that has reached viability. The relatively paltry incentive by the federal government to influence behavior seems like the highest, best purpose of a strong federation of states. Our tax dollars put us on the moon, built the highway system and financed the research into packet switched networks. All of those investments have fundamentally changed our society. Some of it good and a bit of it with unfortunate consequences. Risk and struggle are laudable and fundamentally part of the American DNA. (Even South African/American DNA)
And, a single mom could always buy a Leaf. Late model used Leafs are going for less than 10K. I am thinking of getting one for an airport car. (Single mom’s and flight instructors occupy roughly the same demographic).
Well Trip the problem here is that too many think of the money they pay in taxes, which is ignoble.
We have a $500 Billion annual deficit and an $18 Trillion cumulative debt. So the United States is borrowing to do the last of it’s choices. It isn’t to be thought of as a tax credit; it’s paid to Tesla leasing whenever a citizen leases one as an example. And let’s ruminate on the scale: Ryan bought a $142,000 car. America contributed $7,500. I just threw up in my mouth.
No matter what you individually pay in taxes, as a society it isn’t enough. So, as a society we either pay more or spend less. Or we become Greece and have fiscal sense rammed down our throats. Gordon can bitch about what he’s paid in taxes, but it rings hollow as he brags of his jet’s performance. He’s felt those taxes less acutely than the cop or fireman of soldier or teacher or Cirrus mechanic. I know I have. I don’t want to pay more; I want my government to be better at financial stewardship. I’m happy for Ryan. After all if he were true to form he would have bought a Nissan Leaf, then a modest Tesla then posted about how he needs Ludicrous mode! But I’m disgusted by the idea of his decision adding to the federal deficit despite Gordon’s largesse.
In Arizona our license plates are priced on the basis of the car’s value. So my Lambo has a $6,000 plate. My buddy just bought a P85 and his plate is $50 and he can drive in the carpool lane. OK, let’s chalk that up to social planning. But he also got $7,500, and he’s quite wealthy. He would have bought the car anyway, and I suspect Ryan would have, too. But somebody in America will have to pay the interest on that $7,500 and eventually, the principle. Your kids.
Tell me you want to give every veteran who returns from duty in the Middle East a $7,500 credit toward the purchase of a new F150 and I’ll shut up. Give them twice that if they need it equipped for their handicap, as many do. Let’s not confuse what we pay in taxes with the nobility of their use.
I think I am comfortable with the nobility of creating incentives for electric cars. That veteran might get a job in a Tesla plant. Probably not going to happen if the buyers all buy new S-class and BMW’s.
If we want to talk about disingenuous, How about the section 179 deduction that sold a bunch of Cirrus’. One could argue that the buyers could buy that 700K airplane anyway.
The buyers of the Tesla are putting that money back into the economy instead of giving it to the government that you are sure is mis-managing the budget anyway.
A section 179 deduction is hardly a gift. It merely postpones taxes. I personally don’t use them in my business as I don’t want to carry a tax liability and I predict taxes will be higher later and they’re cheaper today.
But subsidizing luxury car purchases isn’t about taxes. It’s government spending.
But you’re absolutely right about Vets getting Tesla jobs. Tesla has a very focused approach to hiring vets, even including “military veteran” in several job titles. Excellent.
Your points are well taken, Jason. I think all of us would like to see the government be a (much) better financial steward. I think you’ll find unanimous agreement on this forum for that.
In fact, I would venture to say that the biggest core issue that most people have with the taxes that they pay isn’t so much the notional amount or the effective % but rather the fact that so much of it seems to be wasted in the inefficient quagmire that the federal government has become. No one likes to see a sizable portion of their income transferred away only to be spent in an inefficient and questionable manner… which is exactly how a lot of government spending is viewed.
If you tell me that the $7,500 tax credit is going away and we’re replacing those funds with a program to help our military veterans - I’ll gladly forgo it. However, this is just one of many programs out there. Aircraft manufacturers tout the accelerated depreciation as a selling point, the solar industry leverages their tax credit benefit the same way - and the list goes on and on. I would also mention that some of these programs do have some inherent societal merit to them while otherwise might only serve as additional selling points for specific industries.
I think that special interests really run our country, write most of the legislation and buy the requisite political favor from both sides of the aisle. The special interests usually end up with what they want and the rest of the population just points fingers at the other party and gives them the blame for it. Pretty convenient for the special interests and pretty bad for the country as a whole. The real question is - how do you change the system when the actors within it all benefit from the status quo?
Isn’t the motivating thought that the delay is for a time when you will be in a lower tax bracket? Or is it a government sponsored, interest free loan for 250K? That could be way more lucrative than $7500.00.
While not a single mom, could a couple earning 120K buy a Tesla, Leaf, etc and get a credit that is quite meaningful to them? The incentive would sell another electric car and help that Vet get a job? I am not sure how it harms the hairdresser, teacher or candlestick maker.
On the other hand, I do think tax based incentives always get gamed. So, yeah it’s probably a bad delivery method for changing behavior. However, It is available to all and will help any electric car manufacturer.
I’ve never met Ryan, but one thing I’ve observed is he has the ability to generate a healthy debate. On his jet thread, there are over 300 replies! This one is equally heating up. What’s interesting, he has not replied once to his original post?
While I’m here, I’ll post my $0.02…Taxes suck, as a small business owner, it disgust me how much I pay every quarter. I love the USA, but we need better accountability where we spend these hard earned tax dollars. We need a smaller and more efficient government. If I managed my business like our government, I would be homeless.
Is it too soon to say Trump 2016??? Okay, now I did it…
A $142k car is a luxury item… Just like a $800k SR22T.
If the govt offers a silly incentive of $7500, that’s chump change to the significance of the grand scheme here… In CA, you will pay $13k in sales taxes alone !! You will pay $1500 to register the car … The following year registration will be $1400… Hence $7500 is a joke (probably what Gordon was implying)…
If a dozen people pulled the trigger on the purchase as their ego were massaged by the $7500 credit and they just wouldn’t buy it without such a mild credit, it pays for 100 credits down the road …
Our goal is to get as many Ryan’s buying $140k cars as possible !!!
Who cares about $7500 credit from the IRS. Even if they gave $10k to Ryan, that’s great!! More cars will be purchased if more incentives are given… It’s a simple fact… The Sugar on top, these cars are better for the environment and they are not funding the Isis crisis with our domestic oil dependency or contributing to global warming .
That credit IMO should be double ! $15k and maybe I would consider doing the same as Ryan… Until then, I’m enjoying my f150 raptor and waiting for the new 2017 (which will cost $65k) or, less than 1/2 of Ryan’s acquisition and fuel costs for 5 years driving will still put me below 50% of the $142k Tesla… The tech part of the tesla is cool, however I would choose a Raptor for an accident if one was to happen in the next 5 years vs a Tesla
