I know what the POH says re TKS and have been taught to avoid clouds in the winter entirely. I recently got my IFR ticket in a 22 and am wondering what real world experience dictates. How long is it safe to pass thru a level? Any other tips thoughts would be much appreciated. I fly in the northeast and am looking for resources. thx so much!
I’d suggest you join COPA and come over to the member side. There are over 300 posts in the last 5 days on icing alone.
If you weren’t aware, there was an SR-22 which pulled it’s 'chute due to icing just last Friday.
** Report created 1/17/2006 Record 21 **
IDENTIFICATION
Regis#: 87HK Make/Model: SR22 Description: SR-22
Date: 01/13/2006 Time: 2157
Event Type: Accident Highest Injury: None Mid Air: N Missing: N
Damage: Substantial
LOCATION
City: SYLACAUGA State: AL Country: US
DESCRIPTION
ACFT REPORTED ICING WHILE AT 7000FT, CLIMBED TO 7700FT, REPORTED SEVERE
ICING, STALLED, DEPLOYED CHUTES, CAME TO REST IN A GROVE OF TREES, 5 NM
NORTHWEST OF SYLACAUGA, AL
INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 0
# Crew: 2 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Pass: 2 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
WEATHER: BHM 2153Z 27015G21KTS 10SM BKN036 OVC044 09/03 A2983
OTHER DATA
Departed: BIRMINGHAM, AL Dep Date: Dep. Time:
Destination: ORLANDO, FL Flt Plan: IFR Wx Briefing: Y
Last Radio Cont: 5NM NW OF SYLACAUGA
Last Clearance: CLIMB AND MAINTAIN AT 9000
FAA FSDO: BIRMINGHAM, AL (SO09) Entry date: 01/17/2006
That airplane did not have TKS, but there was also a TKS equipped SR-22 lost in March of '05 due to ice.
I think you’ll garner a lot of info from the member side, and it’s only $50 to join.
I wouldn’t suggest you fly into known icing at all. TKS or not.
JT
Your topic has been and is discussed o the member forum. I suggest you join COPA. It is worth 100 time the price you pay.
Congrats on your new airplane.
In reply to:
I know what the POH says re TKS and have been taught to avoid clouds in the winter entirely. I recently got my IFR ticket in a 22 and am wondering what real world experience dictates. How long is it safe to pass thru a level? Any other tips thoughts would be much appreciated. I fly in the northeast and am looking for resources. thx so much!
If you are looking for a hard fast rule . . . forgettaboutit.
The first experience could kill you, so don’t go by any guidelines. It’s your life. You set your standards. The rules say “Not certified for KNOWN ice” . . . Follow them and don’t rely on others. Unknown ice will surprise you often enough.
Sorry if I sound harsh, but . . . it’s your ass. Don’t get caught up in the air with no way down . . . alive.
HereThis thread discusses the recent accident due to flying through known icing conditions. At 17,454 views it is the second most popular thread of all time on COPA. By the end of the week it is almost certain to surpass the #1 thread, this one, which also deals with accidents – one of which is believed by some to have involved ice. Hard to say, though, I’ll let you be the judge.
Happy viewing!
In reply to:
I fly in the northeast and am looking for resources
Join COPA for LOTS of resources and you won’t get iced up!
In reply to:
How long is it safe to pass thru a level? Any other tips thoughts would be much appreciated.
It is not safe to enter any icing in any Cirrus - ever. The TKS system was designed as an escape system and the highly effective laminar flow wings lose lift faster than most aircraft.
To go into it on purpose is asking to be a statistic. It is true it is not likely to fall immediately out of the sky, but since you have no POH data on it - every single icing situation makes you a test pilot AND is contrary to the POH - which prohibits it. Both aspects make it not worth it, although fear of loss of control should get your attention if the regs do not.
If you get into ice, it should be by accident and you should immediately ask for higher or lower to escape it. And if you have TKS and think the temps are getting close to icing, turn it on NOW. It is a anti icing system, not a ice removal system.
As others have said, join copa - not only will it save you money - it could save your life hearing from highly experienced operators of this type. Good luck and safe flying.
In the silver 195 I used to fly, ice was not a big problem. I remember one day, about 20 years ago, some friends and I were running a load of fireworks to chicago from northeast Missouri, where fireworks sales were legal. Probably it wasn’t too smart to have over 100 pounds of low explosive in an airplane, and probably it wasn’t too smart to run them illegally to Illinois. And, in retrospect probably it wasn’t too smart to run through the scud where we picked up huge chunks of rime ice. It was interesting though watching it build up on the struts and then blow off. Beautiful patterns, each different, kind of like icebergs. Only cost us about 20 knots. That plane was tough. bulletproof. built for horrible conditions. The Cirrus is different. Now, maybe due to middle age, more responsibilities, and reading about what can and does happen to these little slippery planes in bad weather, I stay out of the clouds in winter. Maybe others feel differently. But that’s how I manage the risk these days.
OK: If you haven’t figured it out, you’ve been flamed.
Since you have an interest in a very expensive and very popular aircraft: Cirrus, and since, as a pilot, you are in a moderately expensive venture; flying, spring for the $50 bucks and joing COPA as a MEMBER; The big price is not the bucks. You need to alocate adaquate time to self educate and review the messages posted, which, at the momemt will require the next 50 years (no kiddin) if you read fast.
I don’t want to see you get flamed no more.
Now everyone. Stop raggin on the guy. More then a few of you have asked off-the-wall questions.
DO not judge, lest ye be judged
So sayeth the law.
BTW: Your question on the lanceair forum:
I love everything i have read on the 300,350,and 400.
How much smaller is the cabin size than the Cirrus?
Also, “what is a realistic top cruise speed on a standard day near 8k feet?”
Don’t let your money get ahead of your experience. 110 hrs in a Cessna 172, is a starting place; keep building time; don’t kill youself just yet.
Also,
Yes, size counts.
Now that you’ve taken all the crap that comes with a question like this I’ll give you my practical experience. I’ve collected ice 4 times I think in a 22. Once was my stupidity trying to climb through clouds I did not expect to not be able to go under. At 17,499 ft carrying 3/4 inch or so where there was no tks (and an unknown amount on undercarriage) the plane flew like a slug. Very bad.
The other three times have been descending through layers I either did not expect, or temperatures below expected. I know that there are hundreds of COPA experts who never ever ever fly if freezing temperatures are within forecast error (at least +10C), and clouds could be remotely possible but I generally use a little easier standard. When flying from Arizona to Washington I find that conditions just might change from what is forecast.
In this case TKS does an excellent job preventing or removing light to moderate rime or mixed icing. It took a good 10 minutes to begin removing ice once when I did not have the system primed - something to remember. I have also learned to not figure on low setting at all. I always start on high and then reduce but keeping track of timing is difficult (at least for me).
Curt
I will add to this by saying that the pilot of the mentioned crash is EXTREMELY experienced, including quite a bit of SPIN RECOVERY training/knowledge. And he STILL COULDN’T CONTROL THE CIRRUS ONCE IT ICED UP!!!
Man, PLEASE do all of us Cirrus drivers a favor and SELL YOUR PLANE NOW and buy something else! We don’t want/need more dead people attributed to Cirrus aircraft. Besides, you need something with KNOWN ICING certification - not, as others have stated, that ANY GA plane is truly safe in icing conditions - FIKI notwithstanding.
On Neil’s last link, there are two accidents posted (by me) and it’s the second one he’s referring to. The first is a brake fire. The second was a non-instrument rated pilot who perished along with both of his parents.
They were trying to get home for Christmas (two weeks early… so absolutely no time pressure). From what I have gathered, the pilot had already decided not to try to make it home, and had even called his wife to tell her that. It was difficult to convince her that he was the one (along with her in-laws) who perished because of that call.
Ice can and will kill.
JT
In reply to:
In the silver 195 I used to fly, ice was not a big problem. I remember one day, about 20 years ago, some friends and I were running a load of fireworks to chicago from northeast Missouri, where fireworks sales were legal. Probably it wasn’t too smart to have over 100 pounds of low explosive in an airplane, and probably it wasn’t too smart to run them illegally to Illinois. And, in retrospect probably it wasn’t too smart to run through the scud where we picked up huge chunks of rime ice. It was interesting though watching it build up on the struts and then blow off. Beautiful patterns, each different, kind of like icebergs. Only cost us about 20 knots. That plane was tough. bulletproof. built for horrible conditions. The Cirrus is different. Now, maybe due to middle age, more responsibilities, and reading about what can and does happen to these little slippery planes in bad weather, I stay out of the clouds in winter. Maybe others feel differently. But that’s how I manage the risk these days.
Bob,
Won’t even comment on the fireworks (except… I suppose that if those are properly packaged, etc., they may not be a big risk factor - I just don’t know).
With regard to the title of your post… I don’t know the 195 well, but I believe that NO G.A. aircraft is ever OK in ice - even those that are certified FIKI. As I posted on the members’ side, that comparison is for the relatively light stuff - it’s like comparing the crash-rating speeds on the bumpers of cars… in fender-benders, some would be OK while others would get dented. But I also believe that anywhere there’s any ice, there is the potential for DEBILITATING ice - to almost any airplane - in a heartbeat. I recognize that often, ice may turn out to be “not a big deal”, but since there’s no way of knowing when it will turn you into a lawn dart, my policy is to “just say no”. Ice can go from “fender bender” to “head-on collision” in the blink of an eye.
- Mike.
[quote]
PLEASE …SELL YOUR PLANE NOW and buy something else!
I don’t know. I like my little Cirrus and everybody that has one probably won’t sell it just to keep your insurance rates down. But maybe everybody who has a new cirrus should fly the first 100 hours in day, VFR conditions, and then start pushing the limits by adding night, and worsening weather situations.
In reply to:
OK: If you haven’t figured it out, you’ve been flamed.
Since you have an interest in a very expensive and very popular aircraft: Cirrus, and since, as a pilot, you are in a moderately expensive venture; flying, spring for the $50 bucks and joing COPA as a MEMBER;
Dennis…
The joke’s on YOU… you haven’t figured out that Greg joined COPA about 6 1/2 hours ago! [;)]
- Mike.
Curt:
You may or may not remember a previous post on keeping track of used TKS fluid. Even when exercising the system, it is good to know how long you have left on that “full” tank.
I like to use the count up timer function on the Transponder. Works sweet and keep track of total time. Hope that help you too.