In reply to:
There is a connection between religion and morals. Because you do not see the connection does not mean there isn’t one.
Clark,
to see a view into an entire community of people with a very different worldview, visit the website of the Brights. From their site:
What is a bright?
* A bright is a person who has a naturalistic worldview
* A bright's worldview is free of supernatural and mystical elements
* The ethics and actions of a bright are based on a naturalistic worldview
Hi Rich,
Firstly, getting my instrument ticket was a great experience. Between the way I did it, which was pretty cool, and the way it has made my flying more precise, safe and useful, I’m enjoying it very much - thanks for asking. I hope things are well with you.
Secondly, you make a good point (you’re right, but I don’t like it - not that you’re right[:)], it’s their influence that I don’t like) and I understand that since I live in one of the bluest bubbles there is, New York’s West Village, in a blue state, and I work in a very, very, progressive industry populated by countless gay men, lesbians (woo hoo!![;)]), and many people from outside the US (I’ve lived in Milan and Paris for a total of 5 years), my view of the direction and policy the disproportionately vocal minority of the conservative right wishes to impose upon the US is very toxic, to me. Indeed, they are the ones using anger, division, and prejudice to appeal to and mobilize their faithful. As others have so eloquently parried Clark from Wisconsin, I’ve nothing to add to that beyond that I do respect his freedom to believe as he wishes but, on the other hand, it’s my right to believe that his religious and moral myopia breed an intolerance that I just cannot tolerate. His views seem to work fine for him, but they do not for me - at all. I’m sure Clark’s a terrific guy - he flies a Cirrus after all, and you’re right about the sausage factory that is American politics. I guess that I have a real problem with the disproportionate influence that the religious right has in today’s gov’t. The separation of church and state should be sacred, and it’s my belief that more religion in politics will only do harm to this great republic. I also know that my views make me a minority in aviation circles. I therefore will also respectfully agree to disagree more often than not and ajourn to share a beer and talk flying, which is also exciting and engaging.
Does that make any sense? [:)]
JB
WOW!
My kind of thread!!
And I almost missed it!!!
I was wondering how we got 5 pages of posts about government weather services!!!
Let me just say I totally agree with some of the posts, and totally disagree with others.
So there!
In reply to:
I really think “labels” are rediculous. One word or concept to characterize the essence of an individual? In truth, not very likely to fit most of us.
Good luck posting or communicating with anyone without using words/concepts/labels.
In reply to:
Even though I think of myself as basically living by my understanding of Christian ideals, I do not regularly attend church; about once a year for the past few as a matter of fact. The subject itself (of Christianity)is full of so much debate. After all, why else would there be Presbyterians, Epicopaleans, Baptists, Methodists, etc. all calling themselves Christian?
I think all Christian faiths share beliefs in brotherhood, kindness, charity, tolerance, hard work, humility, and honesty. I think this country was founded and built mostly by Christians, and almost all of us were raised in and infused with a culture and set of ‘American’ values based on Christian principles, regardless of whether we are active in a church or consider ourselves ‘religious’.
Some of us seem unaware of this, and think that Christianity has no effect on them, their children, or on the good things in America.
It seems pompous and arrogant for one raised in America, benefiting from the wealth, power, freedoms, security, and opportunity provided, to disdain the institutions and belief systems which provided our culture and enabled those benefits.
One can look at Africa, the middle east, and elsewhere to see where others have gotten without such a positive civilizing religion.
I think it’s very reasonable to worry what ‘AmericaÂ’ will become for our descendants without the belief system it was founded and built with.
Hey Fast Eddie—are you running for office??? [;)]
In reply to:
Hey Fast Eddie—are you running for office???
It is written:
Wherever the Flounder is needed…he will be there!
You be Da Man Fast Eddie The Flounder!!! [:)]
In a satirical (and short-lived) campaign for student government, my slogan was, “Are you tired of ineffective student government? Then ask for Moore!”
Surely an even better slogan can be devised for the “Flounder.”
“In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot … they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purpose.”
“The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.”
“Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.”
“I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature.”
All by Thomas Jefferson
Some of our founders were Christian. Some were Deists who were very critical of Christianity. Most saw that mixing religion and government (theocracy) was a BAD IDEA.
Most of our laws are based on logic or necessity. I don’t see any of the FARs as being based on Christian precepts.
The basics, like prohibitions on killing and stealing, can be arrived at logically, and don’t require mythical stone tablets for justification.
Don’t get me started…oops! too late!
In reply to:
Good luck posting or communicating with anyone without using words/concepts/labels.
In reply to:
Even though I think of myself as basically living by my understanding of Christian ideals, I do not regularly attend church; about once a year for the past few as a matter of fact. The subject itself (of Christianity)is full of so much debate. After all, why else would there be Presbyterians, Epicopaleans, Baptists, Methodists, etc. all calling themselves Christian?
I think all Christian faiths share beliefs in brotherhood, kindness, charity, tolerance, hard work, humility, and honesty. I think this country was founded and built mostly by Christians, and almost all of us were raised in and infused with a culture and set of ‘American’ values based on Christian principles, regardless of whether we are active in a church or consider ourselves ‘religious’.
Some of us seem unaware of this, and think that Christianity has no effect on them, their children, or on the good things in America.
It seems pompous and arrogant for one raised in America, benefiting from the wealth, power, freedoms, security, and opportunity provided, to disdain the institutions and belief systems which provided our culture and enabled those benefits.
One can look at Africa, the middle east, and elsewhere to see where others have gotten without such a positive civilizing religion.
I think it’s very reasonable to worry what ‘AmericaÂ’ will become for our descendants without the belief system it was founded and built with.
Well, the same is true for Canada, Mexico and all of South American.
Where the ‘christians’ in American somehow different from the ‘christians’ in these other places?
Maybe the strong separation of church and state that the American christians insisted upon is the difference, eh?
In reply to:
“In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot … they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purpose.”
“The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.”
“Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.”
“I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature.”
All by Thomas Jefferson
Some of our founders were Christian. Some were Deists who were very critical of Christianity. Most saw that mixing religion and government (theocracy) was a BAD IDEA.
Ed
I’m not defending the veracity or truth of any religion, nor the purity of priests; neither am I proposing mixing government and religion.
I just assert that Christianity has had a profound effect on ‘American values’, the constitution, American history and American success.
You, I, and Thomas Jefferson grew up and live in a society with deep and extensive assumed/unconscious Christian influences on our way of thinking, many of which we now perceive as ‘traditional American’.
These unconscious influences and beliefs are so strong that we are shocked at Middle East suicide bombers, beheadings, or African genocides, and consider them inexplicable, when they are merely un-Christian.
The American founders, all believing in or strongly influenced by Christian religion, were wise and tolerant enough produce the US Constitution, notable for providing for religious and other freedoms.
I see no parallel to our constitution in the Middle East (Muslim/Jewish), Africa(?), or other non-Christian/secular states. E.g. there are no Muslim democracies.
I donÂ’t think all cultures or religions are equally effective at nurturing democratic, healthy, high standard of living, secure, free states/societies.
We should pause before discarding what got us what we have; IÂ’m proud of what our fore-fathers have accomplished here, what America has done to spread and protect freedom in the world.
For me, the future as a secular society is scary.
In reply to:
Most of our laws are based on logic or necessity. The basics, like prohibitions on killing and stealing, can be arrived at logically, and don’t require mythical stone tablets for justification.
There seem to be a lot of places in the world (again, Middle East, Africa, etc.) where prohibitions on killing/stealing donÂ’t seem to have been logically or necessarily derived and applied.
Also, other threads have discussed the high correlation in US elections between blue precincts (low church-going, high crime), and red voting precincts (high church-going, low crime). How do you explain this?
You need more than just laws to bind a society together, especially one as diverse as ours.
Kevin—go for it!!
In reply to:
Whether they come from God or experience, they are good rules to live by.
There’s a scene in a Woody Allen movie where the young Woody questions the family patriarch, asking, in effect, "What if there is no God - wouldn’t you feel awfuly silly about all this? (the rituals).
The Patriarch answers, “Not really. Even if there is no God, this is not a bad way to live one’s life.”
Then again, the “good book” recommends capital punishment for gays and disobedient children.
And I wonder if all the hours spent on ritual were spent instead on cancer research (for example). I’m always amused (and befuddled) when I hear of Orthodox rabbis travelling to China to determine if a particular cough drop is Kosher or not. What a waste of valuable human resources!
In reply to:
I’m always amused (and befuddled) when I hear of Orthodox rabbis travelling to China to determine if a particular cough drop is Kosher or not. What a waste of valuable human resources!
To the extent that time spent on such esoterica keeps clerics from doing real damage by meddling in others’ public or private affairs, I actually think it’s a very good use of their time! [;)]
In reply to:
And I wonder if all the hours spent on ritual were spent instead on cancer research (for example). I’m always amused (and befuddled) when I hear of Orthodox rabbis travelling to China to determine if a particular cough drop is Kosher or not. What a waste of valuable human resources!
I can cite plenty of examples of academics, both in the sciences and the humanities who “waste” years of their lives (and lots of research grants) studying minutae and esoterica far far removed from what affects most people’s daily lives. Does that bother you? If it does, should you be telling them that it is a “waste”? If you do tell them, are you acting any differently from those in this thread who proscribe right and wrong?
It’s a slippery slope…
In reply to:
And I wonder if all the hours spent on ritual were spent instead on cancer research (for example). I’m always amused (and befuddled) when I hear of Orthodox rabbis travelling to China to determine if a particular cough drop is Kosher or not. What a waste of valuable human resources!
You could say the same thing about golf. [:)]
In reply to:
I’m not defending the veracity or truth of any religion, nor the purity of priests; neither am I proposing mixing government and religion.
I just assert that Christianity has had a profound effect on ‘American values’, the constitution, American history and American success.
You, I, and Thomas Jefferson grew up and live in a society with deep and extensive assumed/unconscious Christian influences on our way of thinking, many of which we now perceive as ‘traditional American’.
These unconscious influences and beliefs are so strong that we are shocked at Middle East suicide bombers, beheadings, or African genocides, and consider them inexplicable, when they are merely un-Christian.
The American founders, all believing in or strongly influenced by Christian religion, were wise and tolerant enough produce the US Constitution, notable for providing for religious and other freedoms.
I see no parallel to our constitution in the Middle East (Muslim/Jewish), Africa(?), or other non-Christian/secular states. E.g. there are no Muslim democracies.I donÂ’t think all cultures or religions are equally effective at nurturing democratic, healthy, high standard of living, secure, free states/societies.
We should pause before discarding what got us what we have; IÂ’m proud of what our fore-fathers have accomplished here, what America has done to spread and protect freedom in the world.
For me, the future as a secular society is scary.
Hmm,
Call me nuts, but isn’t this country founded on Judeo/Christian values, not just Christian values? And as much as you seem to be espousing the superiority and civility of Christianity and it’s non-deleterious effects on civilization, for it sure has deleterious ones too, I submit the passage below from, “A Theory of Civilization.” And what’s so scary about a secular society. There are probably millions of aetheists and agnostics in the U.S. You don’t see them raping and pillaging and creating a lawless anarchy. Their civility isn’t due to religion. What could it be that keeps them from going nuts?
Please, it’s great that you find strength and satisfaction in your spirituality, but to assume that civilized people have all been conditioned by Christian values and therefore are shocked by suicide bombings, beheadings, and genocides because they are un-Christian is pure folly.
There is a difference between human nature and religion. Civilized people have an inherent sense regarding right and wrong, and as is the case with militant Islam, and Christianity, or any other religion, religion often gets in the way of logical thought.
That passage:
The Christian moral values which were influential in the development of the common law are similar to the values of other great religions. Thus, though the common law was consciously developed on Christian principles, its base may be found in principles of morality which are common to the messages of all the great religions.
Jeff
In reply to:
I just assert that Christianity has had a profound effect on ‘American values’, the constitution, American history and American success.
You, I, and Thomas Jefferson grew up and live in a society with deep and extensive assumed/unconscious Christian influences on our way of thinking, many of which we now perceive as ‘traditional American’.
These unconscious influences and beliefs are so strong that we are shocked at Middle East suicide bombers, beheadings, or African genocides, and consider them inexplicable, when they are merely un-Christian.
The American founders, all believing in or strongly influenced by Christian religion, were wise and tolerant enough produce the US Constitution, notable for providing for religious and other freedoms.
I see no parallel to our constitution in the Middle East (Muslim/Jewish), Africa(?), or other non-Christian/secular states. E.g. there are no Muslim democracies.
I donÂ’t think all cultures or religions are equally effective at nurturing democratic, healthy, high standard of living, secure, free states/societies.
We should pause before discarding what got us what we have; IÂ’m proud of what our fore-fathers have accomplished here, what America has done to spread and protect freedom in the world.
For me, the future as a secular society is scary.
There seem to be a lot of places in the world (again, Middle East, Africa, etc.) where prohibitions on killing/stealing donÂ’t seem to have been logically or necessarily derived and applied.
Also, other threads have discussed the high correlation in US elections between blue precincts (low church-going, high crime), and red voting precincts (high church-going, low crime). How do you explain this?
You need more than just laws to bind a society together, especially one as diverse as ours.
Warren:
IMHO, it is only natural that individuals and groups like to think of themselves as “better” than others. This allows them to feel better about themselves. The self-esteem side of this issue is harmless unless it gets to the point where they feel superior to others and believe their superiority, by virtue of their group membership, gives them superior “rights” over the others.
I would submit for your consideration that it is this tendency or need to feel superior, rather than any basis of actual fact, that makes many very religious Christians claim credit for the success of “American values” rather than any real cause-and-effect relationship. Isn’t it possible that our founding fathers were a group of unusually intelligent, dedicated visionaries committed to defining what would work BEST for all Americans over the long term, and NOT a group of individuals driven by what you refer to as Christian beliefs? In support of this argument, I offer two thoughts:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE. What is the likelihood that 18th century statesman, strongly driven by their religion, would take the time to specifically declare that the government should make no law regarding establishment of religion? To draw a contrast, try to imagine the religious right TODAY agreeing to the same provision! If you think that would pass the committee today, you’ve been rolling and lighting some strange plants from your garden (joke.)
PERSONAL BELIEFS OF FOUNDERS. As pointed out by Eddie, clearly not all of our founders were guided by Christianity. Indeed, the person who is probably the most influential of all in the constitutional process appears to be anti-religion. I don’t consider myself anti-religion at all. Why didn’t the believers kick this Jefferson guy out?
Also, I think youÂ’ll have to agree that Christians have their own skeletons, from the Crusades to the “Christian” KKK to modern-day so-called “pro-life” killings and violence (howÂ’s that for an oxymoron?)
Why canÂ’t we all agree that our founders were incredibly smart in putting down on paper a way that a nation of diverse immigrants could grow and live together and prosper in peace? Not perfect, but way ahead of #2! Why do Christians feel the need to take credit for the genius of the constitution or claim special rights under it?
Like you, I don’t see parallels to our form of government in the middle east either. But looking at the middle east, I also see cultures far less educated, far less prosperous, and far more indoctrinated (brainwashed?) about the “correctness” of their religious beliefs than Americans typically are. The result of THOSE factors is a lower value placed on human life, compared to what we enjoy here. Why is it not possible that those huge factors account for the difference in America’s culture and our success, rather than the simplistic theory of crediting it on our “Christian heritage,” whatever that means.
If you remove Islam and substitute Christianity, I submit that those insane suicide bombers would be equally willing to do it for Jesus as they are to do it for Allah.
To me, having my government define for me what religious beliefs bind us together is FAR scarier than the prospect of a secular society. What’s the chances of the latter anyway, with freedom of religion wisely written into our constitution?
Jim Knollenberg
In reply to:
I just assert that Christianity has had a profound effect on ‘American values’, the constitution, American history and American success.
Yer not kidding, just think of the mess we would be in now, if we didn’t burn all those witches.
In reply to:
I can cite plenty of examples of academics, both in the sciences and the humanities who “waste” years of their lives (and lots of research grants) studying minutae and esoterica far far removed from what affects most people’s daily lives. Does that bother you? If it does, should you be telling them that it is a “waste”? If you do tell them, are you acting any differently from those in this thread who proscribe right and wrong?
It’s a slippery slope…
Yes, but even the most esoteric of basic science studies has the potential for a great payoff, whereas knowing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin is unlikely to advance mankind much.