Duats Flightplans

Guest Discussion
1

I just got off of the phone with FSS and they informed me that pilot info such as name, phone #, address etc. doesn’t get transmitted to FSS or ATC from Duats when you file a flight plan with Duats. Is this true? Has anyone had any experience with this?

I was notified that my flight plan didn’t get closed, 6 hours after the fact today. I replied that I didn’t think that it was ever opened, and why didn’t they just call me using the phone number on the flight plan. FSS then informed me that they don’t get that info from Duats. I, frankly , just can’t believe that. Any body KNOW what duats transmits to FSS and ATC?

2

Do you have any idea how your flightplan got opened? I assume that a DUATS flight plan just like a phone-in plan doesn’t open until you call and open it in the air.

-Curt

3

I have frequently filed with Duats and never had a real problem. Occasionally, NY Tracon has received it but they haven’t worked it yet so I have to hold or call back in a minute.
Richard

4

Paul,

Are you talking about VFR or IFR flight plans, or both?

Cheers,
Roger

5

Paul:
I have been using DUATS almost exclusively for flight plan filing over the last 7 years. I started this when several plans were never processed on the automated phone line at FSS. I have NEVER had a flight plan “screwed up” using DUATS in all that time because the data goes right from DUATS to the ATC computer newtwork that spits out flight plan formats to the local ATC facilities. These have always been IFR flight plans. If I file at all, it is always IFR.
All of the data is sent on the flight plan form. Whether ALL of the data then goes from ATC to the local facilities is another story.
Where is your local FSS telling you this? Are you talking VFR or IFR plans?

6

Ok, here goes. This story really has 2 parts.

Part 1: I filed an IFR flight through DUATS, tried to open it in flight, told to remain VFR, never got radar contact nor clearance, told to “try Dayton approach”. Contacted Dayton approach, couldn’t get radar contact or clearance, passed out of their Com coverage area, and basically said to hell with it, I’ll just remain VFR and continue my flight. Apparently, ATC activates your flight plan whether or not you get a clearance or radar contact.

Part 2: If a flight plan gets activated and not closed, they will come looking for you. [;)] My FBO found me 7 hours later, at home, and told me that people were looking for me. I called Terre Haute Fllight Service and asked them if they were looking for me. They said they were looking for N84PD, but didn’t know who the pilot was. OK, I am trying to control myself at this point, when I ask for a supervisor, and then ask why didn’t you look at my name and cell phone number on the flight plan, and just give me a call, after I failed to show up at my destination. The supervisor, then exclaimed "We don’t get the pilot and phone info from the Duats flight plan, we NEVER HAVE. She then explained that she really prefers that we file through the FSS because of that fact. UNFREAKINBELIEVABLE!

Brian, I have been using DUATS for like 10 years, never a problem, but something like this you wouldn’t find out until you didn’t close the flight plan, and they came looking for you, but didn’t know where to look, SINCE THEY DON’T KNOW YOUR NAME OR PHONE NUMBER. [:@] I still don’t believe this, I have a call in for a DTC Duats supervisor.

Side note: Mike Radomsky, is this the same FSS that told you that some Illinois airport was open but didn’t tell you that all of the runways were closed?

7

I have to believe this is a FSS foul-up. Certainly, flight plans should not be activated automatically merely by filing DUATS. And I can’t imagine that FSS is routinely accepting DUATS filings without ever having a pilot name or number. While most FSS employees seem top notch to me, I’ve encountered a few (no doubt, new hires) that seem to not have a clue what’s going on. (though it seems hard to figure how they would have inadvertently activated your plan unless someone typed in your tail number to pull it up on the computer…perhaps your first contact with ATC got it activated)

8

This sounds strange:

In reply to:

Apparently, ATC activates your flight plan whether or not you get a clearance or radar contact.

This can’t really be true, can it? Otherwise, filed flight plans would never “time out” two hours past their P-time. They’d become overdue, and the search teams would start looking for you. I filed IFR plans several times for trips I never made, because the weather became too bad. I didn’t cancel the plans, and nothing happened. My understanding is that an IFR plan is just a request/proposal from you, the pilot, until you get a clearance. Am I missing something fundamental here?

In reply to:

SINCE THEY DON’T KNOW YOUR NAME OR PHONE NUMBER.

I haven’t ever landed gear-up, since I’ve only made a dozen or two flights in retractable planes. But I have made the other inevitable mistake – forgetting to close a VFR flight plan. This was a couple of years ago, when I still thought there was a point to filing VFR plans (as opposed to just getting radar-advisories en route). I had filed one with Duats; I opened it en route with FSS; and I didn’t close it after I landed. An hour later my cell phone rang – they had started looking for me, so somebody must have had the contact info I’d filed via Duats. FWIW.

9

In reply to:

Side note: Mike Radomsky, is this the same FSS that told you that some Illinois airport was open but didn’t tell you that all of the runways were closed?

Paul,

Yup, it was Terre Haute, and the airport was Palwaukee.

I don’t believe the problem lay with that particular FSS, but rather with the wording of the NOTAM - I had spoken with two other FSS facilities by phone prior to departure, and neither of them mentioned the airport being closed, although they had the same NOTAM.

You can listen to the tortured logic that allowed them to believe that the airport was NOT closed – the MP3 file of the conversation is available in this post on the Members Forum.

Mike.

10

…so somebody must have had the contact info I’d filed via Duats.

Jim,

Do you use DynCorp DUATS (http://www.duats.com/http://www.duats.com/) or DTC DUATS (http://www.duat.com/http://www.duat.com/)? I’m wondering whether this might account for the discrepancy between your experience and Paul’s.

Cheers,
Roger

11

In reply to:

My understanding is that an IFR plan is just a request/proposal from you, the pilot, until you get a clearance. Am I missing something fundamental here?

My exact thoughts. (apparently wrong) I requested clearance once airborne(uncontrolled field, no remote com outlet) got a squawk code, but no radar contact or clearance. So why did they activate my plan? GREY AREA ALERT! [;)]

12

Dave,

The first thing I did was ask for a FSS supervisor. She said they have NEVER received name and phone from duats on flight plans. I agree this must be some kind of mistake. But she was emphatic about it.

I wonder if this is a good question to call a FSDO and talk to them about this.

13

In reply to:

Do you use DynCorp DUATS (http://www.duats.com/) or DTC DUATS (http://www.duat.com/)? I’m wondering whether this might account for the discrepancy between your experience and Paul’s

Good point. I used Dyncorp yesterday.

14

I use DynCorp.

15

I suspect that when you got the squak code the controller put you into the IFR system. For whatever reason he then forgot about you. I would call the supervisor of the facility that you called initially and ask him to investigate what happened.
Regarding flight plans in general my understanding is as follows:
IFR plans. You give all the information to DUATS or FSS. The route, altitude, proposed time and point of departure, TAS and type of equipment are sent to the appropriate ATC facility. Other information including name, phone number, number on board, color of aircraft, and even the alternate airport are NOT sent but are kept on file in case they’re needed later.
The IFR plan is automatically activated when the controller activates it.
VFR plans are only opened at the specific request of the pilot. When the plan is opened the aircraft number, type equipment, ETA and fuel exhaustion times are transmitted to the FSS at the destination. If the pilot does not close the plan in the allotted time then inquiries are made. The demographic information is requested from the FSS (or DUAT provider) that originally took the plan.
Again, in your specific case somebody screwed up and I’ll bet it was the controller who gave you the squak and nothing else.
Check and let us know.

16

Paul,

I’m confused (no surprises there for anyone who knows me). In an earlier post you mentioned that you had a call in to a supervisor at DTC, but you also said that “I used Dyncorp yesterday.” So — with which system have you had the problem of the pilot’s name not being attached to the flight plan?

Thanks,
Roger

17

Sorry, my mistake, it was definately DynCorp(www.duats.com) that I filed with, and also have a call in for.

Paul

18

They are clearly giving you the wrong information at your local FSS. In addition, the controller had to avtivate your flight plan and then not tell you which was mistake number 2.
I know for a fact that ALL the data on the DUATS flight plan gets transmitted and is in the ATC computer as Jerry has said. Jim Fallows has experience where he was actually called so clearly the data is given to “the system”. Why your local FSS has never sen it is the REAL question to chase down here. Definitely worth a call to the local FSDO.
Let us know how it turns out.

19

I might be able to shed a little light here:

The PC-based CIRRUS FOR DUATS (DynCorp) has a place in the SETUP menu where you have add a check mark to have the pilot’s name added to the flight plan when filed - it ends up in the REMARKS section. Otherwise, no pilot information goes into the system. The on-line (web-based) DynCorp DUATS puts it in automatically, assuming you filled out the “pilot profile” section. Should you want to change the pilot information on the web-based version, you have to either enter it in the REMARKS section or log on with that pilot’s access code. I know nothing about the DTC version, 'cause I don’t like it and therefore don’t use it…

20

Pure speculation on my part, but a-speculatin’ I’ll go:

A compulsory investigation is launched when ATC simultaneously loses radio and radar contact with an aircraft (fact…not speculation there). If a pilot was attempting to pickup an IFR clearance but only got as far as entering the squawk code before exiting radio coverage…then for whatever reason changed over to a 1200 code…you now have simultaneous radio and radar contact loss (even if the pilot wasn’t ever told “radar contact”). The ATC computer would show that code had auto-acquired on a target and generated a datatag. It would also show that the target tracking had subsequently been lost (due to changing to a 1200 code). If no clearance had been issued, then no flight plan was activated…so no pilot name/phone number would be associated this event. The investigator(s) would have little info to go on, other than perhaps a callsign and/or potential home base airport/FBO. It’s like trying to figure out that Professor Plum did it in the Observatory with a Candlestick.

Incorrect target auto-acquires happen all the time. Aircraft depart often with the wrong squawk code (mis-entered digits, forgetting to change to 1200 on the ground then taking off with the last flight’s squawk code, etc, etc.). Believe me…our phones would ring off the hook if ATC assumed that every unidentified target acquire was really a emergency.

My speculation is that what was INITIALLY being investigated was making sure that everyone was okay regarding simultaneous radio and radar contact loss, not that a flight plan wasn’t closed. The facts regarding the flight plan may have merged into the investigation somewhere along the line, but by that time the initial investigator(s) may or may not be involved anymore and the participants may not clearly understand what precipitated the whole event…they just know that they need to find an airplane-shaped object with Nxxxxx painted on it. And seven hours is enough time for a huge amount of distorted information to be introduced and for everyone to get completely wrapped around the axle and to begin to eat their own young.

I know, I know. It all sounds very stupid. And it sounds like there surely has to be a better way. And I’m sure there is. But I just report the facts, Ma’am. And I could be completely wrong…I frequently am. And why didn’t the pilot get the IFR clearance in the first place? Don’t know…wasn’t there. I could come up with a zillion scenerios that would make you say, “Oh…that makes sense now.” I could also come up with a zillion scenerios that would make you say, “Geez…what a bunch of morons.”

But it does sound like this whole episode did somewhat spin out of control, and not because of any one person’s actions. My advice: Try to remember to laugh when you can!

Kelly Rudy
SR22 sn0179 N224KR