Did ATC Screw Up . . . or Was It Me?

Guest Discussion
#1

Departed IFR out of Orange Country today on my way to San Jose’s Reid Hillview. Clearance given was Anaheim Three departure, Seal Beach, V459, etc.

After takeoff, ATC gave me a few vectors, then said: “Join V8 and call So-Cal Approach.”

Thing is, V8 was never on the flight plan.

The next controller inherited this confusion and jumped all over me. This just made me more confused and I was unable to find any of the airways he told me to join. (None were on my clearance!) He was rude and told me to land the plane if I didn’t understand the airways.

Obviously the first controller goofed by telling me to join V8, since V8 was never on my flight plan. Had I been quicker, I would’ve said something like: “Confirm V8, please, because it’s not my clearance.” But I wasn’t quick and the goofup controller handed me off to the nasty controller before I said anything.

Question: did I defacto accept a new clearance when I complied with the controller’s directions to “join V8” even though it wasn’t on the flight plan?

All very confusing. Discouraging, too,

#2

Rich,

I’ll leave it to the FAR experts as to who screwed up here, but I don’t know that I could have done any differently in the same situation. However, I do have a suggestion.

I’d call the ATC facility supervisor and calmly discuss the incident with him. He can pull the tapes and review the conversation. Whenever a controller insults a pilot, he is creating a potential safety problem because of the possible emotional response.

If you make the call, it may prevent it from happening to someone else. Just like pilots, controllers can have bad days, but professionals don’t take it out on their customers.

More importantly, I predict you’ll feel better after making the call.

Remember what pilots and controllers have in common: When the pilot screws up, the pilot dies. When the controller screws up, the pilot dies.

-Mike

#3

Rich,
While I’m not familiar with the airspace V8 is clearly shown on the Anaheim 3 Departure. The fact that it wasn’t on your flightplan is really irrelevant since what the controller was doing was vectoring you to SLI via V8. I don’t think he goofed.
What you should have done since you didn’t understand what he was telling you was to ASK. You need to understand that you can be given any routing the controller needs you on regardless of what you filed. If the controller wanted to he could have said proceed direct BAYJY V186 V459 LHS. The fact you didn’t file that way doesn’t matter.
In busy airspace always be ready for frequent reroutes and changes. Again, if you don’t understand what the controller is telling you to do, ASK.
Nevertheless the next controller should not have been rude but rather should have clarified your clearance when it was obvious you were confused.
The only time your original clearance is important is if you lose communication. If you’re in contact with ATC they can amend your clearance any time and the new clearance always takes priority. And yes, acknowledging a new clearance means you accepted it and are expected to fly it properly.
Don’t be discouraged though. IFR in busy airspace is difficult and we all learn by experience. Think of today as simply a lesson.

#4

Been there, done that. Tough flying lesson.
Jerry’s comment about V8 being on the departure procedure is clue #1. You need the resources at your finger tips. At a minimum these are the Anaheim.Three departure chart and the low IFR chart open to the LA area.
Your clearance SLI and V459 is clue #2. Note that the Lake Hughes transition on the Anaheim.Three departure takes you east of Seal Beach to climb to 8000. Your clearance puts you on V459 from SLI but probably at too low an altitude to avoid traffic going into LAX. Not good.
As others have stated, you accepted the amended clearance, which is clue #3.
Having said all of that, here is a bit of coaching from one who has been through similar confusion in all of the west coast class B airspaces (SAN, LAX, SFO, SEA – it’s a record I don’t want anyone to break!)
Don’t argue, do confess, do ask for help.

As your are on an IFR flight plan, the worst that will happen is that they vector you to the penalty box in the sky, but in the meantime, you will be safe.

As someone suggested, this is a classic situation for an ASRS report. From your description, the initial clearance may have created a traffic conflict, so perhaps that was incorrectly assigned or incorrectly read out. And your reports of controller behavior might be worth an investigation of the tapes, if for no other reason than to help ATC deal with unexpected pilot confusion more effectively. Likely, you might be embarrassed by the tapes of your communication, but the ASRS program is intended to focus on safety rather than blame.

Keep learning!

Cheers
Rick

#5

Rich -
In the LA basin, and in other busy airspace, it is common to be vectored around to places not on your flight plan or your last clearance. It is quite usual to be given a vector with instructions to join an airway. When the Santa Ana winds are blowing and LAX traffic is taking off to the east things can get really wild. If you have the airway and intersection display options selected on your MFD it is fairly easy to see what airways you will intersect when being vectored. On the Avidyne, the airways are best seen on the second screen which has a darker background and does not show terrain. Once you hit the airway, just go direct to the next fix. Also, as Rick suggests, it is best to have the L3 chart in your lap.

#6

Rich:

I wouldn’t feel bad. The SNA/SOCAL ATC interface is one of the more difficult ones in California for several reasons.

First, the low enroute chart is a mess in that area. There are a lot of VORs, Victor airways, intersections and such in a tiny space. Very difficult to find something unless you already know where it is.

Second, the controllers expect you to know this stuff cold. They deal with a lot of pros that fly the airspace on a regular basis, and have little patience for pilots who aren’t familiar with the airspace. They have a point as the SNA class C transition to LAX class B occurs quickly and there is little room for error.

A pilot at the OXR fly-in had a cheat sheet that listed common NAVAIDs in the area. Not a bad idea. At a minimum it is worth studying the chart before starting the engine. If vectored to an unfamiliar fix you may not be able to find it in time. Since today was VMC, there would have been a lot of VFR traffic to watch for anyway. Not a good time to search for an unfamiliar airway.

I second the advice of the poster who emphasized ASKING when in doubt. I would even take it one step further. If vectored to something you weren’t expecting and can’t find, ask for help. I have found that ATC will usually thank you for asking. I have heard airline pilots ask some pretty basic questions with no apparent embarrassment. If a guy with 15,000 hours can ask for help, why can’t I?

#7

In reply to:

Obviously the first controller goofed by telling me to join V8, since V8 was never on my flight plan.

Rich, I know what you’re talking about. When I was coming out of Burbank two years ago, right after takeoff I was given what was apparently a routine-for-Burbank zig-zag routing for planes headed north. But it wasn’t routine for me, since it was my first time in Burbank, and I initially didn’t know where I was supposed to go. (If you check out the Burbank7 departure plate, you’ll see that it’s almost as busy as the Anaheim3.) As others have suggested, I requested “initial vector to…” and at least got headed in the right direction while I pored over the departure plate. The controller sounded exasperated but gave me the vector.
The two operational lessons I learned, which might apply in your case: First, in crowded airspace – especially SoCal, but also parts of the east coast – it is not a goof but a near-inevitability to be given a bunch of headings, fixes, re-routes, and other instructions you didn’t file on the plan. When I was coming past JFK/NYC airspace this January, I think each of five or six sequential controllers changed my routing. Technically I suppose you could say “I decline the amended clearance” but then they’d probably vector you to Kansas to get you out of the way of their flow.
Second, when they give you a departure procedure – like Anaheim 3 – that procedure is your clearance. They’re assuming that everything on that procedure’s departure plate is at your immediate disposal. If they sent you to a fix or on an airway not shown on the departure plate, they might in the same breath give you an initial vector or spell out the fix. But if it’s on the plate, the assumption is you’re ready for it. Since V8 is on the departure plate, the controller would have assumed this was one of the options you were prepared for.

I would second the recommendations to file an ASRS report, not because there’s any chance you’ll get into trouble (which the ASRS helps guard against) but because it’s an actual learning situation and can help them collect data about how people use, understand, and misunderstand the system. Also, they should know if a controller is sounding abusive – even if he is procedurally in the right. Hope to see you at some east coast or west coast fly-in, Jim F

#8

Since we are on the subject of Clearances, and since have a trip planned from ISM to HPN (White Planes NY.) Does annyone have any sage advise re: routing, ATC problems, or otherwise what I might expect in the NYC area?

#9

Rich,

As others have said, ATC was correct. However, ATC could have been a little more helpful. They could have said, “fly heading 300 to join (or resume) the Anaheim 3 departure” since this was your clearance.

Just to touch on something Jerry mentioned, while ATC can change your clearance they need to do so in a way that is not ambiguous. They can’t just blurt out a new airway that is not on your cleared route without warning you that this is a new routing. They can however, provide you a “direct-to” clearance to any intersection, waypoint or VOR on your current cleared route or provide you vectors to join an airway ahead of you, but still on your cleared route (in other words, they can give you shortcuts).

I know this wasn’t part of your question, but be careful accepting off route clearances. You are responsible for obstacle separation in this case and are required to maintain proper IFR separation with terrain. In other words, once off the airway, you are on your own.

It is true that ATC won’t lkely approve or assign an off route clearance unless you are at or above the MVA or MIA for the area. But don’t trust the controller to always be correct. Verify by looking on the chart. Ultimately it is your responsiblity to know what terrain separation is required.

#10

A huge thanks, everyone. Mistake one: not studying the departure plate sufficiently. I had never had a reason to study one in great detail before . . . in fact, I don’t recall devoting much time to departure plates while studying for the IFR ticket. Such laziness won’t do in the future.Once lost, I did ask for vectors, but the second controller (nasty; i.e., probably just overworked) would give me only VORs and airways. Unfortunately, on the dense LA low altitude maps these are hard to locate if you don’t know them.Which leads to mistake number two: I let the harsh response from the second controller get to me. No, I didn’t argue, but I became too intimidated to confess, ask for help, and insist on vectors. I guess that’s the low-time, low-esteem IFR pilot in me. Something to work on.As for sorting it all out on the MFD, hey I’m a turbo Skylane driver with a little Cessna appendage called the 5-inch King 850 display. I guess I’ve seen the Cirrus/Avidyne light!

#11

Rich: I haven’t read ALL of the posts here, but just for the record (I fly out of SNA all the time), ATC will routinely give the Anaheim 3 as “Vectors SLI, V21, V363, V186, V459…with the Lake Hughes transition.” As soon as you get vectored out of SNA, they routinely say “join V8”. Well, V8 and V21 are one and the same between SLI and PDZ. Go figure, why they would clear you for V21 and then use V8. Happens all the time. They did not actually change the departure, just referenced an overlying airway. The Jepp plate shows this clearly. Keep your sense of humor when in So. Cal.

#12

You might also file an ASRS form, just in case.

#13

Rich,

I had a similar experience as a California pilot visiting the east coast, getting sent to airways I had no clue about. I did elect to land and sort it out (the embedded TS’s were a factor!).

But I wonder if an appropriate response to getting confused is “803EM requests a vector”.

-Curt

#14

In reply to:

Also, they should know if a controller is sounding abusive – even if he is procedurally in the right.

Jim,

If you follow your own advice in the New York sector then I’m amazed you have any time to write anything else at all! [:)]

-Curt

#15

In reply to:

If you follow your own advice in the New York sector then I’m amazed you have any time to write anything else at all!

Curt,

I know that NY controllers have a less-than-stellar reputation in the friendliness department… but I have to say that I find them very nice to deal with. Busy, but nice. Once in a great while I talk to a grump, but I can say the same about other places. Good idea to be “on your toes” 'round here, though; I imagine it must be very similar to the SF area that way.

  • MIke.
#16

If you’re going to HPN from the south you probably will be routed to the west of Washington via MRB HGR HAR v162 ETX FJC BWZ SAX v39 Brezy. If you want to stay to the east you will spend some time over the ocean.
The way to figure this out is first to check and see if there are any STARS for the route. In the case of HPN the only STAR for slow (<250 KTS) aircraft operating under FL 180 is from the north. Therefore look at the preferred routes into HPN from airports to the south. If you do that you will find the routing given above.
One caveat. The routing you get will be based on traffic conditions and the traffic flow into and out of the metro NY airports and will vary. What you get is what you’ll get.
Also note that altitude choices are limited. The routing I gave you is at 7000. Not 6000, not 5000, not 8000 just 7. This can be an issue in winter if there is any ice since the traffic flow requires you at a specific altitude. If you need to change altitudes it can be a big problem.
Once you get to HPN I highly recommend West Air. The lounge is nice, the service very friendly and the prices quite reasonable.

#17

In reply to:

… but I have to say that I find them very nice to deal with. Busy, but nice.

Mike,

You’ve definitely gone native. What sounds ‘busy but nice’ to a New Yorker sounds like getting your head ripped off to us laid back Californians!

-Curt

#18

In reply to:

I know this wasn’t part of your question, but be careful accepting off route clearances. You are responsible for obstacle separation in this case and are required to maintain proper IFR separation with terrain. In other words, once off the airway, you are on your own.

It is true that ATC won’t lkely approve or assign an off route clearance unless you are at or above the MVA or MIA for the area. But don’t trust the controller to always be correct. Verify by looking on the chart. Ultimately it is your responsiblity to know what terrain separation is required.

If on an IFR flight plan, are you saying that we need to VFR charts to know what the MSA is, and have them readily available during IFR conditions? I thought ATC used Minimum Vectoring Altitudes for the area we fly, and I’ve never seen a MVA chart for sale at my local FBO, what gives?

#19

James: The current issue of IFR has an article on MSA’s. It is quite an eye opener, since some of the data that the FAA is relying on may not be entirely accurate.

The only source to the pilot of MSA is the altitudes on the DP or on the chart.

Anaheim 3 is a handy chart to have. I don’t have the tower enroute city pair list here, but part of the TEC from the west side of the basin over to Brackett, Cable, etc. involves POXKU, or in ATC speak Victor 8 Victor 363. I think it may also involve WILMA or ATC speak Victor 25 Victor 8. If you are flying GPS, these waypoints will save figuring out the airway intersections by VOR radials. The clearances are almost universally to an intersection defined by Victor airways but if you know the intersection name and it is in the Garmin database that works great.

You will frequently get a clearance from SoCal consisting of a vector to join an airway. What I do is engage heading and altitude hold (if not already on) look at the chart and the flight plan page of the Garmin to figure out if you need a new waypoint to get the airway segment involved, highlight the “downstream” waypoint to make that airway segment the active leg of the flight plan and then hit HDG and NAV together to arm the course intercept. It is a little complicated for Victor 8 since there is a bend at SLI.

I am assuming that you were give a northwest vector to join the piece of Victor 8 between PDZ and SLI. This would mean putting in PDZ just prior to SLI then highlighting SLI and pushing the direct to key to activate that segment.

Once you have that in place, check to see that the rest of the flight plan is consistent with the clearance. You may need to delete a waypoint or two or three if they no longer apply.

It also helps to “replay” the sequence using the Garmin simulator to go through each step that is needed to fly the clearance.

I don’t yet have the digital recorder set up on my Cirrus, but that would be very helpful in terms of review and learning from the flight just completed.

I was a little rusty coming into Oxnard last weekend. When SoCal gave me a simple clearance of a vector to join the Oxnard localizer, I started by looking at the approach plate for the frequency for the localizer. What I should have done is just hit PROC and select the ILS 25, vectors, and activate the approach. Then hit HDG and NAV together and the plane will fly the clearance. Remember to load the NAV frequency (or check to see that the GNS 430 did that automatically).

When I am close to the extended centerline, just switch to VLOC and fly the approach. By doing this in the simulator post flight you reinforce the steps that get you to the route you need with the least amount of keystrokes and looking.

#20

Jim,
You don’t really need VFR charts (although they are nice to have). On Jeppesen enroute charts there are grids that show the MORA (minimum off route altitude) for each grid. Stay above that altitude and you will be safe. Minimum vectoring altitudes are used in terminal areas and on vectors. For an en route clearance, say from Denver direct to SFO you’re not really on a vector. You need to know the MORA and that’s what you get on the Jepps (I don’t know about NOAA since I haven’t seen one of their charts for many years).