That assumes that all the fuel leaving the tanks goes into the engine.
The totalizer will not show a fuel leak.
Love the CIES guages. We put them in our SR-20 Gen 3 about a year ago. Very accurate. Unlike some other reports, our analog guages were all over the place and we lost trust.
We still always use visual inspection of fuel and reference the totalizer, but having that more accurate quantity indicator just adds to the whole fuel planning picture/process.
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Personally I know my fuel burn and time and I never cut it close on refuelling. Costs less than new gauges and is more accurate, even though my MFD is extremely accurate.
Respectfully Iâd restate the point that knowing your burn doesnât help you if you have a leak.
It may not happen often, but it does happen. (It happened to me, and was a deciding factor for my upgrade to the CiES gauges.)
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I bought my CiES fuel gauges at the COPA auction last year. Though the system CiES provided for the auction were intended for a later model they generously provided the system needed for my 2004 SR22 G2 (they are slightly more expensive). The install for G2âs requires composite work as the sensors are relocated in the tank which makes the install much more expensive. My quote for the install was 30 hours to be done during my annual. When I showed up for the annual they refused to do the installation because of the required composite work. They had quoted a G3, which is a simple replacement, no composite work. The shop was recommended by Savvy and CiES as one of their preferred installers, but evidently they had never done the composite work required for my install.
I chose to complete the annual and get quotes for the CiES. The folks at CiES were very helpful here in finding a shop and understanding the work involved. (I wished I had asked more questions initially).
I got quotes form several reputable service centers that had done G2âs and were reasonable ferry trips. All were 50 - 60 hours for the install and only one was a hard quote. That was Fixed Wing Aviation in Lakeland. So I dropped the airplane off during Sun n Fun and that made the trip more worthwhile. The flat rate for the install was $6250 and 10 days. We were a day after the promised date for delivery but the install has been without any issues and I am happy with the system.
My old gages had always been suspect and one would often not show indication after startup. I dip my tanks and pay close attention to the fuel totalizer, but I always have been concerned about fuel imbalance and just having accurate reading of whatâs in each tank. The day I left for my annual I dipped the tanks and had no indication of fuel in the left tank. I figure that there was 7 gallons, but hard to say for sure. The gage indicated 15 gallons in the left tank. I had landed on the right tank and it indicated 18 gallons. This certainly got my attention. I have my timer set for thirty minutes for switching tanks, so I didnât think I should ever be that far out of balance. I surmise that I probably was interrupted by a radio call or some other distraction and cancelled the timer before switching. (I have changed my routine here to hopefully avoid that mistake).
I have had the gauges installed now for about 30 hours and I am happy with what I am seeing. I still dip my tanks and monitor fuel added versus indications, etc. During the initial test flight we did not see a lot of variation in indication during attitude changes, but they are floats and I do see what are obviously some indication issues from sloshing. I am comfortable now looking at the indications and selecting the fullest tank.
- Thanks to CiES and the COPA auction I received my system at a very reasonable cost.
- Fixed Wing Aviation was good and I plan to go back for my annual.
- If you have an older airplane like mine, make sure you and the shop understand the work involved in this installation. It is obviously very expensive for a G2.
- I would definitely go with a shop that this done this before and can provide a flat rate quote.
- For me it has been worth the peace of mind I have from accurate and reliable fuel indications. My old gages were suspect.
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Roger, thanks very much for the information - geeeze - I can tell that I need to maximize awareness of fuel at all times - before flight, during (obviously critical) and after (confirming what goes in each tank during refuel). I now have a fuel stick and so far have been able to make sense of the fuel checking/confirming as noted above. the extensive effort to install the Cies gauges is an eye opener for sure. so far, my gauges seem to be âinformativeâ they do give a relative and progressive indication, but dont match each other exactly, and dont indicate perfectly. it seems in the end that ALL indications and monitoring are required to ensure the flight is safe.
as a new member of COPA, I can see how awesome it is to benefit from the experiences of others.
most grateful to all the folks who have chimed in on this topic - thank you
tom
Hi Tom,
I think the CiES look cool as all get out, but I have decided they donât warrant the cost for my mission profile (2 hour reserve standard, 1 hour minimum)
Two products that I would recommend:
A snazzy fuel dip stick:
A gizmo to send system data to in ipad: This one is nice as it can be set up to track fuel use from each tank separately. Not itâs primary function, but the one I like most.
https://www.flightdata.com/bluemax
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Easiest rule is just to top off after every single flight. That is, if you are flying alone or with 1 passenger.
âif you can afford the airplane, you can afford the fuel. quit screwing aroundâ
-grizzled ancient (deceased) flight instructor who trained me a lifetime ago
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Another consideration in the CiES sender decision is your panel.
We have an Avidyne MFD/PFD setup in our 2008 Matrix similar to the set up in the same era Cirrus. We installed the CiES senders over three years ago to replace our horribly inaccurate Piper factory senders. We liked the technology of the CiES senders and the lifetime warranty.
However, we continue to struggle getting accurate readings from our CiES senders despite numerous fixes and calibrations over the past three years. Apparently, the Avidyne DAU is very difficult to set up to properly interpret data from the CiES senders. Scott has struggled personally, to his credit, to get the Avidyne DAU calibration to consistently provide accurate readings. The biggest issue has been in the handoff between the outboard and inboard senders.
At this point, the CiES is not quite ready to accurately work with the Avidyne DAU, but weâre hopeful for a future fix Scott thinks may be coming soon.
I have a G1 with the âcrappyâ fuel senders and gauges. They actually work just fine especially coupled with the totalizer that is accurate within a 0.5 on 81 gallons.
I put âcrappyâ in quotes because my analog gauges do work fairly well from a practical perspective. Both read full when the tanks are topped and read pretty well at ~15g and below (never been below 5g in a tank so donât know if zero mean zero). The right side is really good all along the scale. The left is great for the first 5g then races down to 20g and catches up around 15g.
The totalizer, of course, is spot on and since I track each side, I know what each tank has. The fuel gauges back this up and also would indicate if I have a fuel leak before any real issues ensure.
I always start with full tanks so Iâm comfortable I know how much fuel I have with my current setup. If I didnât start full on a regular basis, Iâd buy one of the FuelStiks. Iâm also adding a BlueMAX in a couple months so I wonât have to manually track the individual tanks.
To each their own â but given the major surgery an upgrade to CiES would take for a G1/G2 â Iâd spend my upgrade $$$ in a different way.
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My G2 had excellent original gauges and senders, always accurate and I loved them. Until they failed. Once they failed I figured I would get the CiES gauges. What a great upgrade! I love them - they are even better than than the ones on the G6!
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Just a clarification - So in the G1 and G2 Cirrus actually reinforced the inbd main tank wing rib to support a fuel sender installation from nearly day one. The FAA was getting picky about fuel quantity and safety in the early 2000âs, so Cirrus would have to find an alternate technology prior to moving the sender to this location. When technology arrived that would meet the intrinsic safety requirements - they could go to this plan B as the provisions were already in place. For an aircraft manufacturer, this would be easy. In the G3 Cirrus - the vendor provided a solution that involved a magnetic coupling and the sender was moved from the Collector tank to the Rib where Cirrus had intended the sender to go - problem solved. Retrofit is more difficult in all cases aircraft related - but relatively speaking the actual mod, it is actually more like outpatient surgery.
We donât worry about the loss of sale as - In the future - all of these G1 G2 Cirrus will be upgraded avionics-wise and the Rochester center gauge will fail (We subjected one to a HALT test - Highly Accelerated Life Test). The Garmin interfaces or even a retrofit Aerospace Logic gauge are less friendly to the intermittent signal interruptions and signal losses inherent in classic resistive float senders.
One thing we do know - thanks to Jim Barker - is that measuring fuel from the collector tank on a G2 Cirrus is filled with issues. A collector tank vent space that expands with altitude, combined with fuel suction depression (flow through interconnecting pipes lowering collector tank level ) and combinations of both.
The fact that the G1 G2 original fuel senders work - is frankly a freak of nature, more Hocus Pocus than a planned event. I am glad this works for many of you - but I would be hard-pressed to explain why.
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I had one, and liked it. BUT it doesnât show fuel below about 27 (if memory serves) per tank.
That sounds about right for G3 - G6⌠Maybe a little lower. The G1 & G2 have less dihedral and probably go lower.
The main thing I used my fuel stick for was calibrating my eyeball. I still use it when planning for flights when I am near my minimum fuel reserve.
Certainly no panacea, but another good (low cost) tool.
I donât believe this is an issue in the cirrus as the avidyne MFD does not display actual fuel qty just the totalizer information.
Ah, I see.
So when installing the CiES senders, does the fuel sender data get sent to the analog gauges or do the analog gauges get replaced with a digital display?
I replaced mine with a digital display. I believe that you have to replace them but you have a few choices.
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Itâs been said a few times here that the totalizer works only for fuel going through the engine, so a quick story that Iâll add to this. I was flying my G2 one day and as usual sumped the tanks after filling with fuel to check for water. Got it home to the hangar and cleaned everything up, My wife commented she though she could smell fuel but I could not so I made a not to check next time and assumed it might be coming from the hangar backed up to ours where they were clearly doing maintenance.
We came back a week later and found that the outer sump on the left side wing had stuck open from some debris when I sumped it and most of the fuel from that take was sitting on the ground, on the wheel pant etc⌠So I cleaned it all up, and actioned the sump then went and put enough fuel into it to make sure the valve had some more fuel to leak if it still leaked. It did not. Unfortunately the tyre was destroyed by sitting in fuel for that time.
I keep thinking had I been on a longer flight with that occurring the fuel wouldâve drained out of that wing without my knowing about it until I looked at the gauges. This reminded me to pay a lot more attention to them in-flight.
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I have an older G3 install (~2013) and the âdeadâ zone is 28-32g. Other than that theyâre accurate to the tenth. And work as a backup slip-skid indicator as well.
Iâve got no issue with a little inaccuracy in the middle of the tank. Iâve verified theyâre accurate to the tenth at lower levels â where it matters.
Edited to add FlySto screenshot showing dead zone.
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