Sad story from the Walker family

Replying to thread,

This is a topic very un-dear to my heart, so I had to wade in ! Random thoughts: I would bet $ & give great odds, that the number of attorneys that get sanctioned for lying and bringing merit-less lawsuits is an infinitely small number, much less percentage. Stopping the abuses in the system would limit everyone in the judicial chain’s income. Not likely. Just common sense.
Arbitration is no panacea. The abusers claim they have no obligation, no fault, & there are 0 (that’s zerro) damages. If you have a claim for $3,000,000 actual damages, the tendency is to ‘split the baby’. So, you ‘win’, but the award is only for $1,500,000. Your legal fees get split also, so you get tagged for another $100,000. The arbitrators get $50,000. Your damages are $3,000,000 & you end up w/ $1,350,000. The bad guys laugh all the way to the bank, they saved $1,500,000. These bad guys are what keeps feeding the corrupt system, why would anyone think the system will punish them? Doing so would hurt the system’s income. Not likely. How do you think the bad guys will approach their next deal & subsequent ‘arbitration’ ? Side note, even if the arbitration panel (three expert lawyers/judges) make an obvious math mistake, there is no appeal. Think about that the next time arbitration is part of a deal. The winners will be the ones that, abuse the system, even if you ‘win’. Also, the award that you won doesn’t just get done. Guess what ! You will spend another year getting a court to enforce the award, all the while the abuse continues, that is, continuing damages…

Jaded,

Andy,

I have not researched the topic in a scientific way, but I know that much: Coffee has to be between 88 to 96° C - or it will not taste.

A German court would probably rule that you are not supposed to hold a hot cup of coffee between your kneees … in a car :slight_smile:

Doesn’t this remind you to some things that happened in aviation?

i think I could get behind limiting the contingency fee, or as they did in California, placing caps on certain types of damages-IIRC, under the Medical Injury Compensation Reform Act passed way back in the 80’s in California, pain and suffering awards were limited to $250k.

The hard part about enacting such limitations is that the plaintiffs lawyer have a powerful lobby and most legislators are lawyers and are sympathetic to the plight of impoverished plaintiff’s lawyer so getting legislation passed isn’t easy.

And again, you will see fewer cases filed as for most contingency fee lawyers it is a game of numbers. But that might not be a bad thing- unless you’re the unfortunate soul who has been injured but can’t find a lawyer to take your case.

OK guys, I’ve been on the sidelines here long enough. In the interest of full disclosure, I practice business and aviation law, get paid by the hour, and don’t do contingency work.

As a general principle, in California (the U.S.) we need more fee shifting to the prevailing party. It makes no sense to have to spend $50,000 in legal fees to win $25,000, and each side pays their own fees. Likewise, when a defendant wins his case, absent extreme circumstances, he should get reimbursed the $50,000 he paid to defend.

I’m generally in favor of most tort reform efforts, such as mandatory mediation and neutral case evaluation before litigation.

Having said the above, it’s really a bad idea when the government starts telling clients how they can or can’t pay their lawyer. Contingency fees are not the problem. The “no risk to the plaintiff” in such arrangements is. If the plaintiff had to pay at least some of the defendant’s fees when they lose, much frivolous litigation would go away. But, as many have stated above, some plaintiffs with real claims can’t afford an attorney by the hour. In such cases, they should have the right to pay by contingency.

Ron Laughlin:
was told by a native New Zealander that they have some sort of a government board that sets limits on the awards but I don’t know the details or anything about how well it actually works in practice.

New Zealand has a national “no-fault” insurance scheme and for the most part there is no ability to sue for damages. There is a good overview of it here. I can’t see the US ever going this way because of the vested interests in the current system, but also because it takes away the blame game, and emotion is a huge driver in many lawsuits.

via COPAme

“In such cases, they should have the right to pay by contingency.”

I’m not opposed to attorneys collecting a fee for time invested from an award at the conclusion of a case. I just think percentage fee arrangements are good or equitable. Are you saying that lawyers (in general) will not take on an underprivileged client’s case unless they stand to make huge returns? I don’t think that’s true. I think it’s an excuse to maintain the status quo.

Scott while for many years I was an advocate of the loser pay model as it would put a stop to most frivolous lawsuits, the more I have thought about it I have come to believe that it has several flaws.

First, it simply would result in many many meritorious claims not being pursued. There is such a high level of risk in pursuing litigation due to the unpredictability of judges and juries that it would result in meritorious cases not being pursued. It would in my opinion swing the pendulum too far the other way.

Second, do you really want corporate defendants chasing little old ladies and taking their houses away after winning a lawsuit? Seems like corporations are in business to provide goods and services and that their shouldn’t be a lot of impediments to those seeking recovery if they are harmed by the product.

The truth is that the deck is stacked in the corporate defendants favor anyway- they can bury the typical plaintiff’s lawyer in an avalanche of discovery, depositions motions (often frivolous) in efforts to spend the plaintiff out of existence. While I realize that in both the patent arena and shareholder class action arena that there are several well heeled plaintiff’s firms, by far most of the PI lawyers are one person shops that dont have deep resources.

However, there is not doubt that there are many many frivolous claims brought in the name of simple extortion. To me the answer is to make it very punitive to the lawyer who files the frivolous lawsuit. The malicious prosecution staututes in most states are a joke, They basically require that the sued defendant prove fraud in the filing of the lawsuit. We should put some real teeth into those statutes so that a lawyer has to prove that they did a fairly diligent investigation and has concrete eveidence behind their claim before filing the lawsuit. If the lawyer can’t show that they are subject to huge sanctions. I know the Federal Courts have a Rule (Rulee11 I think it is called?-it’s been a long time) that imposes such standards. But guess who stops every attempt to pass such legislation at the state level? The plaintiff’s lawyers who pay to get their officials elected.

In my opinion making it very punitive on the lawyers who, bring the extortion lawsuits would stem the tide considerably.

In case you’re interested, here’s the WSJ article.

Again, I do believe that there’s a need for tort reform. However, this wouldn’t be the case I’d use. 3rd degree burns, 7 days in hospital, and skin grafts, from coffee spilling while putting lid back on. In my opinion, not as one-sided as has been portrayed, although I realize others may differ.

AndyMcDonalds coffee.pdf (22.6 KB)

Europe and Germany specifically is an excellent example of a system that works. Having lived there for years the people have a responsibility to use common sense. the mentality does not exist that they can mass a fortune by making an accident with cars or winning millions for not securing your coffee in a moving vehicle. Ymmv but we can learn from a country with the best cars, best highways, best beer and they took a tickelish situation like prostitution legalized and regulated it.

In McDonalds case car wasn’t moving.

“we can learn from a country with the best cars, best highways, best beer and they took a tickelish situation like prostitution legalized and regulated it.”

So you can get into one of the best cars, drive it at over 150 MPH perfectly legally on one of the best highways in the World then park it and get drunk on the best beer in the World and then get laid.

This is is clearly a country where no right thinking man would ever want to live.

Errrm… hang on a moment! [:P][;)]

And as you know, that is not all. Not by a wide margin.

In this particular case, people love to decry the frivolity of what they think occurred – based on the urban legend. When they are confronted with the facts of what actually did occur, many instantly become less interested. The legend is far more spicy and way more interesting than the facts.

That’s a very tiny article!

Yes, saw that. See if this helps!

Andy


The Wall Street Journal Copyright (c) 1994, Dow Jones & Co., Inc.

Thursday, September 1, 1994

A Matter of Degree: How a Jury Decided That a Coffee Spill Is Worth $2.9 Million — McDonald’s Callousness Was Real Issue, Jurors Say, In Case of Burned Woman — How Hot Do You Like It? By Andrea Gerlin Staff Reporter of The Wall Street Journal

ALBUQUERQUE, N.M. – When a law firm here found itself defending McDonald’s Corp. in a suit last year that claimed the company served dangerously hot coffee, it hired a law student to take temperatures at other local restaurants for comparison.

After dutifully slipping a thermometer into steaming cups and mugs all over the city, Danny Jarrett found that none came closer than about 20 degrees to the temperature at which McDonald’s coffee is poured, about 180 degrees.

It should have been a warning.

But McDonald’s lawyers went on to dismiss several opportunities to settle out of court, apparently convinced that no jury would punish a company for serving coffee the way customers like it. After all, its coffee’s temperature helps explain why McDonald’s sells a billion cups a year.

But now – days after a jury here awarded $2.9 million to an 81-year-old woman scalded by McDonald’s coffee – some observers say the defense was naive. “I drink McDonald’s coffee because it’s hot, the hottest coffee around,” says Robert Gregg, a Dallas defense attorney who consumes it during morning drives to the office. "But I’ve predicted for years that someone’s going to win a suit, because I’ve spilled it on myself. And unlike the coffee I make at home, it’s really

hot. I mean, man, it hurts."

McDonald’s, known for its fastidious control over franchisees, requires that its coffee be prepared at very high temperatures, based on recommendations of coffee consultants and industry groups that say hot temperatures are necessary to fully extract the flavor during brewing. Before trial, McDonald’s gave the opposing lawyer its operations and training manual, which says its coffee must be brewed at 195 to 205 degrees and held at 180 to 190 degrees for optimal taste. Since the verdict, McDonald’s has declined to offer any comment, as have their attorneys. It is unclear if the company, whose coffee cups warn drinkers that the contents are hot, plans to change its preparation procedures.

Coffee temperature is suddenly a hot topic in the industry. The Specialty Coffee Association of America has put coffee safety on the agenda of its quarterly board meeting this month. And a spokesman for Dunkin’ Donuts Inc., which sells about 500 million cups of coffee a year, says the company is looking at the verdict to see if it needs to make any changes to the way it makes coffee.

Others call it a tempest in a coffeepot. A spokesman for the National Coffee Association says McDonald’s coffee conforms to industry temperature standards. And a spokesman for Mr. Coffee Inc., the coffee-machine maker, says that if customer complaints are any indication, industry settings may be too low – some customers like it hotter. A spokeswoman for Starbucks Coffee Co. adds, “Coffee is traditionally a hot beverage and is served hot and I would hope that this is an isolated incident.”

Coffee connoisseur William McAlpin, an importer and wholesaler in Bar Harbor, Maine, who owns a coffee plantation in Costa Rica, says 175 degrees is “probably the optimum temperature, because that’s when aromatics are being released. Once the aromas get in your palate, that is a large part of what makes the coffee a pleasure to drink.”

Public opinion is squarely on the side of McDonald’s. Polls have shown a large majority of Americans – including many who typically support the little guy – to be outraged at the verdict. And radio talk-show hosts around the country have lambasted the plaintiff, her attorneys and the jurors on air. Declining to be interviewed for this story, one juror explained that he already had received angry calls

from citizens around the country.

It’s a reaction that many of the jurors could have understood – before they heard the evidence. At the beginning of the trial, jury

foreman Jerry Goens says he “wasn’t convinced as to why I needed to be there to settle a coffee spill.”

At that point, Mr. Goens and the other jurors knew only the basic facts: that two years earlier, Stella Liebeck had bought a 49-cent cup of coffee at the drive-in window of an Albuquerque McDonald’s, and while removing the lid to add cream and sugar had spilled it, causing third-degree burns of the groin, inner thighs and buttocks. Her suit, filed in state court in Albuquerque, claimed the coffee was “defective” because it was so hot.

What the jury didn’t realize initially was the severity of her burns. Told during the trial of Mrs. Liebeck’s seven days in the hospital and of her skin grafts, and shown gruesome photographs, jurors began taking the matter more seriously. “It made me come home and tell my wife and daughters don’t drink coffee in the car, at least not hot,” says juror Jack Elliott.

Even more eye-opening was the revelation that McDonald’s had seen such injuries many times before. Company documents showed that in the past decade McDonald’s had received at least 700 reports of coffee burns ranging from mild to third degree, and had settled claims arising from scalding injuries for more than $500,000.

Some observers wonder why McDonald’s, after years of settling coffee-burn cases, chose to take this one to trial. After all, the plaintiff was a sympathetic figure – an articulate, 81-year-old former department store clerk who said under oath that she had never filed suit before. In fact, she said, she never would have filed this one if McDonald’s hadn’t dismissed her request for compensation for pain and medical bills with an offer of $800.

Then there was the matter of Mrs. Liebeck’s attorney. While recuperating from her injuries in the Santa Fe home of her daughter, Mrs. Liebeck happened to meet a pair of Texas transplants familiar with a Houston attorney who had handled a 1986 hot-coffee lawsuit against McDonald’s. His name was Reed Morgan, and ever since he had deeply believed that McDonald’s coffee is too hot.

For that case, involving a Houston woman with third-degree burns, Mr. Morgan had the temperature of coffee taken at 18 restaurants such as Dairy Queen, Wendy’s and Dunkin’ Donuts, and at 20 McDonald’s restaurants. McDonald’s, his investigator found, accounted for nine of the 12 hottest readings. Also for that case, Mr. Morgan deposed Christopher Appleton, a McDonald’s quality assurance manager, who said "he was aware of this risk . . . and had no plans to turn down the

heat," according to Mr. Morgan. McDonald’s settled that case for $27,500.

Now, plotting Mrs. Liebeck’s case, Mr. Morgan planned to introduce photographs of his previous client’s injuries and those of a California woman who suffered second- and third-degree burns after a McDonald’s employee spilled hot coffee into her vehicle in 1990, a case that was settled out of court for $230,000.

Tracy McGee of Rodey, Dickason, Sloan, Akin & Robb, the lawyers for McDonald’s, strenuously objected. “First-person accounts by sundry women whose nether regions have been scorched by McDonald’s coffee might well be worthy of Oprah,” she wrote in a motion to state court

Judge Robert Scott. “But they have no place in a court of law.” Judge Scott did not allow the photographs nor the women’s testimony into evidence, but said Mr. Morgan could mention the cases.

As the trial date approached, McDonald’s declined to settle. At one point, Mr. Morgan says he offered to drop the case for $300,000, and was willing to accept half that amount. But McDonald’s didn’t bite.

Only days before the trial, Judge Scott ordered both sides to attend a mediation session. The mediator, a retired judge, recommended that McDonald’s settle for $225,000, saying a jury would be likely to award that amount. The company didn’t follow his recommendation.

Instead, McDonald’s continued denying any liability for Mrs. Liebeck’s burns. The company suggested that she may have contributed to her injuries by holding the cup between her legs and not removing her clothing immediately. And it also argued that “Mrs. Liebeck’s age may have caused her injuries to have been worse than they might have been in a younger individual,” since older skin is thinner and more vulnerable to injury.

The trial lasted seven sometimes mind-numbing days. Experts dueled over the temperature at which coffee causes burns. A scientist testifying for McDonald’s argued that any coffee hotter than 130 degrees could produce third-degree burns, so it didn’t matter whether McDonald’s coffee was hotter. But a doctor testifying on behalf of Mrs. Liebeck argued that lowering the serving temperature to about 160 degrees could make a big difference, because it takes less than three seconds to produce a third-degree burn at 190 degrees, about 12 to 15 seconds at 180 degrees and about 20 seconds at 160 degrees.

The testimony of Mr. Appleton, the McDonald’s executive, didn’t help

the company, jurors said later. He testified that McDonald’s knew its coffee sometimes caused serious burns, but hadn’t consulted burn experts about it. He also testified that McDonald’s had decided not to warn customers about the possibility of severe burns, even though most people wouldn’t think it possible. Finally, he testified that McDonald’s didn’t intend to change any of its coffee policies or procedures, saying, “There are more serious dangers in restaurants.”

Mr. Elliott, the juror, says he began to realize that the case was about “callous disregard for the safety of the people.”

Next for the defense came P. Robert Knaff, a human-factors engineer who earned $15,000 in fees from the case and who, several jurors said later, didn’t help McDonald’s either. Dr. Knaff told the jury that hot-coffee burns were statistically insignificant when compared to the billion cups of coffee McDonald’s sells annually.

To jurors, Dr. Knaff seemed to be saying that the graphic photos they had seen of Mrs. Liebeck’s burns didn’t matter because they were rare. “There was a person behind every number and I don’t think the corporation was attaching enough importance to that,” says juror Betty Farnham.

When the panel reached the jury room, it swiftly arrived at the conclusion that McDonald’s was liable. “The facts were so overwhelmingly against the company,” says Ms. Farnham. “They were not taking care of their consumers.”

Then the six men and six women decided on compensatory damages of $200,000, which they reduced to $160,000 after determining that 20% of the fault belonged with Mrs. Liebeck for spilling the coffee.

The jury then found that McDonald’s had engaged in willful, reckless, malicious or wanton conduct, the basis for punitive damages. Mr. Morgan had suggested penalizing McDonald’s the equivalent of one to two days of companywide coffee sales, which he estimated at $1.35 million a day. During the four-hour deliberation, a few jurors unsuccessfully argued for as much as $9.6 million in punitive damages. But in the end, the jury settled on $2.7 million. McDonald’s has since asked the judge for a new trial. Judge Scott has asked both sides to meet with a mediator to discuss settling the case before he rules on McDonald’s request. The judge also has the authority to disregard the jury’s finding or decrease the amount of damages.

One day after the verdict, a local reporter tested the coffee at the

McDonald’s that had served Mrs. Liebeck and found it to be a comparatively cool 158 degrees. But industry officials say they doubt that this signals any companywide change. After all, in a series of focus groups last year, customers who buy McDonald’s coffee at least weekly say that “morning coffee has minimal taste requirements, but must be hot,” to the point of steaming.

The decision for McDonald’s to have to pay 2.9 million for someone spilling coffee on themselves is wrong on so many levels. It just goes against any common sense and those that try to justify it are (in my opinion) part of the problem. But hey, we have all paid the price because McDonald’s passed it on, the Lawyer is singing all the way to the bank and other countries get a good chuckle at how out of touch we can be. Can anything happen to anyone without it being someone else fault anymore?

Ken Beck:
The decision for McDonald’s to have to pay 2.9 million for someone spilling coffee on themselves is wrong on so many levels.

It was reduced on appeal to something like $160K damages and 450K punitive damages. The real tragedy is that it cost hundreds of thousands in legal fees and tied up a court for 7 days. It should have been mediated. And you can’t tell me someone gets to 81 and doesn’t know that hot coffee can burn you.

via COPAme

IMHO that that was simply an accident and that somebody who is scared of hot coffee / or cannot handle it should not order HOT coffee. Or do a hot coffee rating, hot coffee night rating, hot coffee in car rating.

Now the Walker case is even more ridiculous. How many times was Smith & Wesson sued for suicides committed with their handguns? And they even make products that are designed to kill people.

Not so Porsche. Those people have a hard time accepting that their beloved relative died because he/they made a fatal mistake. And they not only endangered and finally killed themselves ( … what if a child on a bike had been on that street?)

Now no one can order hot coffee, because it’s all lukewarm because of this lawsuit. That’s a very salient point about these lawsuits. A product gets dumbed down, to the dismay of millions of consumers, because one Darwin award recipient met up with a good lawyer. Please don’t bother with the “but it makes products safer” routine. To make life completely safe we’d all be compelled to never get out of bed. (I can see the bedsore lawsuits coming.)

I can see no downside to a “loser pays” law, wherein the prevailing party in any lawsuit is entitled to collect their legal fees from the non-prevailing party. This would drastically reduce the amount of frivolous lawsuits that are filed with the “let’s take a look and see” attitude.

Amen to tort reform. Oh yeah, DC is run by lawyers.