Intentionally stalled the plane with some unseen quantity of ice on the wings!?!?
I’m sure it was a valuable lesson but… but…
I’m speechless too.
Dean
PS – now I’m going to go overload my SUV with firestone tires and intentionally blow one out at high speed to get a valuable lesson in preventing a roll-over…
[speechless]
Joe
One of the things that we did was to fly in icing conditions in his T182RG with a hot prop and nothing else in the way of de-ice (of course it has a heated pitot). As the ice built, Field had the other student (I was in back - rats) stall the plane. We noted the increase in stall speed and he made the point that most pilots know that one must carry a higher approach speed when carrying ice. We then descended into warmer air and landed.
:o)
Joe, good comment!. That’s about all that can be said. I am surprised that a CFI would violate the FAR’s so blatently, in an area with such huge potential risks.
I am, however, very impressed by an instructor who can find a layer of icing conditions with much warmer air below on an as needed basis. Maybe this guy is much better than we give him credit for?
Intentionally stalled the plane with some unseen quantity of ice on the wings!?!?
I’m sure it was a valuable lesson but… but…
I’m speechless too.
Dean
PS – now I’m going to go overload my SUV with firestone tires and intentionally blow one out at high speed to get a valuable lesson in preventing a roll-over…
Car and Driver did just this on the track and was unable to duplicate any rollover tendency. In fact, even hands-off braking resulted in a smooth, straight stop. Lesson 1: don’t panic.
But wings aren’t tires and cars don’t fly. So I agree: ice belongs in my glass and on the ground, NOT on my plane’s wings. Any trace of icing calls for IMMEDIATE action to climb/descent/turn out of the icing conditions.
Did he tell you what to do when the tail stalls?
Don’t worry about Field. I flew over 50 hrs with him last month and can assure you he takes ice very seriously. If I were caught in ice there is no one I’d rather have with me than Field.
If the tail stalls on approach you’re in trouble. So if ice has made you a test pilot better test, at altitude, to see where your ice modified aircraft will stall. Gutsy yes. But may be better than guessing what speed you really need on the turn to final.
FAA? Never in ice? Little problem for half the country, but a big dilemma for the other half. Where I fly it’s “Caution. Birds on the runway and possible icing in clouds” for every take-off, at least in winter. FAA weather is tempered with legal CYA. The weather you encounter is generaly not as severe as forecast. Problem is, sometimes it’s worse. So what’s a guy to do?
I think the answer is to gain as much knowledge and experience as possible. Thanks Rick, for bringing it up.
I’ll put a post on the Lancair builders list. These guys are sharp and should have some insight on the ice on laminer flow question.
I also highly recommend Field Moreys IFR West coast trip. But beware, he’s a spam can fan who disdains plastic planes.
For the benefit of Field Morey I hope the FAA doesn’t monitor this site.
Lots of interesting stuff on the guy’s own site (ifrwest.com). Eg, this report from a student, on the trip he and another student, “Jim,” took with the instructor:
"Between Pueblo, CO and Lincoln, NB, Jim was at the helm. We quickly picked up some ice as we ran into the back of a low coming up from the south, spreading a warm front ahead of us. It was clear ice, and it immediately affected our airspeed. We had lost 30 knots, and it was sinking fast. While Jim’s and my eyeballs were about to pop out, Field noted that the pitot tube freezing over caused a big part of the drop. He wouldn’t let Jim turn on the heat. The airspeed indicator quickly dropped to zero. THEN, he had Jim turn it on. Field then wanted us to see how long it would take to become effective. Those 90 seconds were an eternity.
"Lesson #910:- Pitot heat is there for a reason. It can prevent and it can fix a frozen tube.
"Back in the clear, but still carrying the ice, Field told Jim to do a stall to see how the performance had degraded. Again, Jim’s eyeballs almost came out of his head. “Go ahead”, said Field. Sure enough, we had lost 30 knots. If we didn’t lose the ice, we would have to add 30 knots to our approach speed.
“In the back seat, I was thinking, 'doggoned, I’m glad Field is here!”
Also from the site
“Field Morey has been dedicated to quality instruction for the past 38 years. Over half of his 29,000 hours have been in the role of flight instructor. He has been an FAA designated pilot examiner for the past 25 years with over 1500 students licensed. He was named Flight Instructor of the year by the FAA Great Lakes Region in 1976. Since the first trip in a Cessna 172 in 1966, he has conducted over 200 West Coast Trips. His training experience is not limited to the Continental U.S.; Alaska and South America have been destinations in the past. In 1980 he set an NAA speed record in a Cessna 210 across the Atlantic Ocean.”
I have to disagree, Jim. All that Morey accomplished with this student was to convince him that flying in ice is okay. (As long as the ice knows that the pilot it’s dealing with is a very experienced one. And, BTW, it’s also okay to bend the known icing rules to make a point. After all, if you’re a good enough pilot, the rules don’t really apply to you anyway.)
Imagine how much more effective the scenario would have been had Morey reacted like this:
“Uh oh, weÂ’re beginning to pick up a litttle ice. Okay, guys, this could get serious and it can happen fast. I have the aircraft. I know we have warm air below us so IÂ’m starting a descent, right now. Notice that IÂ’m checking that I have my pitot heat on and IÂ’m selecting alternate air now, in advance, to ensure airflow to the engine in case of carb or air filter icing. Okay, we’re going down now, and the temp is coming up. Good. IÂ’ll keep checking my VSI against my attitude indicator for signs of any discrepancy that might indicate that the static ports are icing up. If I see a problem, IÂ’ll establish an alternate static air source. You remember how to do that, right? Notice that IÂ’m keeping my airspeed up because my stall speed is probably going to increase and I also want to lessen the possibility of the horizontal tail icing up, which is more likely
at lower speeds. That could be VERY serious! At this point I’m pulling in full defrost to try to stave off any windshield icing. Okay, looks like weÂ’re coming out of it. ThatÂ’s better. All right, we can level off now. Okay, guys – thatÂ’s how to handle an inadvertent icing situation. Any questions?”
I imagine the student’s attitude would be much different today if the instructor had taken the opportunity to do some real instructing.
All the student remembers now is that great flight in the ice with that instructor who wasn’t bothered by it at all.
Joe
It has been fascinating to read the accounts on Morey’s IFRWEST site, and I think they bring up a larger point which hasn’t been represented here.
On the one hand, the trip-reports on that site are full of events and decisions that I would NEVER DREAM of undertaking myself. Deliberately flying into lenticular clouds. Laughing off “Scaremets” and warnings from the “Fright Service System.” Deliberately stalling the plane (a) in IMC (b) with ice. Read these things-- you’ll be amazed.
I’d never do this because-- I am a 400 hour pilot with 40 hours of “actual” IMC and I think that erring on the side of safety is the way I’ll get to be a 1000 hour pilot, and then more. When I got my IFR rating two years ago, I told a friend who is a former F-15 pilot that I was America’s newest instrument pilot. “Great,” he said. “Now your goal is to become America’s oldest instrument pilot” – ie, to survive the years.
On the other hand, the instructor who is deliberately encountering these hazards has flown 29,000 hours, and has taught for 15,000 hours, and presumably there is something he knows about perils in the air. My friend (and fellow Atlantic Monthly author) William Langeweische - the best current writer about flying, although he mainly writes about other things – has a chapter in his book ‘Inside the Sky’ about flying deliberately into huge, giant, plane-busting storms, or deliberately flying at extremely low altitude. Again, he presumably knows what he is doing. His father was, of couse, Wolfgang L, and William has been in planes since before he could talk. I have never flown on this kind of mission with William – but I would like to, and I now have become more interested in Field Morey’s adventures. There are circumstances in which you learn more about limits and risk-management by going with people who have been beyond the normal envelope – as long as you have reason to trust their judgment about what is actually dangerous. It seems to me that people like F. Morey and W. Lang. have earned trust of their judgment.
My proposal: that we retain contradictory-sounding principles in mind at the same time. People like me should NEVER stay around when the icing starts, or fly near a lenticular cloud, or take other such risks, if we are operating the plane ourselves. But at the same time, it’s not necessarily wrong for people with many decades’ more experience to expose students to calculated risk for instructional purpose, based on their judgment of when exactly the risk becomes unacceptable. That is, I would never fly like Field Morey on my own, but I can see the value of learning from someone like him.
bothered by it at all.
Joe
It has been fascinating to read the accounts on Morey’s IFRWEST site, and I think they bring up a larger point which hasn’t been represented here.
Gentlemen:
My favorite column in AOPA magazine is “NEVER AGAIN”. As most of you know, each month a scenario is courageously displayed from a fretful or perhaps embarrassing situaltion that a pilot lived through. I learn a great deal from those pilots’ mistakes, and I hope will be able to avoid the same mistakes. When I have an opportunity to learn about the icing characteristics of the plane I am about to stake my life on, I WANT TO KNOW!
Please, leave the egos at home and let this helpful type of interaction continue. Personal attacks on forum members, or Flames, as we are learning to call them, have no place in this dialogue. We’re all pilots, and we all have similar needs to learn about the envelope of this aircraft OUTSIDE of the manual. That can not possibly be twisted to say that we (I) have a desire to act out such events.
Rob: excellent question. I look forward to more information about the unique flight characteristics of N204AK (FEB 14, 2001 delivery date, with training the next two days in icy Duluth).
I also promise to post anything I learn via poor planning, unforeseen weather, pilot error, or mechanical mishap that might be of help to others in the Cirrus fleet. Until we have a Cirrus Owners Group, this is the best format for safety and sharing.
A. Alexander
Thanks for your thoughts. As you can see, that approach didn’t work very well. I queried present owners as to a performance issue and was greeted with more than one lecture with a single thesis “ice is bad” – something we all [I hope!] know well – which is, of course, why I asked the question to start with. (In fairness, however I DID get some very useful thoughts and insight from a couple of the folks here.)
[part deleted]
When I have an opportunity to learn about the icing characteristics of the plane I am about to stake my life on, I WANT TO KNOW!
Please, leave the egos at home and let this helpful type of interaction continue. Personal attacks on forum members, or Flames, as we are learning to call them, have no place in this dialogue. We’re all pilots, and we all have similar needs to learn about the envelope of this aircraft OUTSIDE of the manual. That can not possibly be twisted to say that we (I) have a desire to act out such events.
Rob: excellent question. I look forward to more information about the unique flight characteristics of N204AK (FEB 14, 2001 delivery date, with training the next two days in icy Duluth).
I also promise to post anything I learn via poor planning, unforeseen weather, pilot error, or mechanical mishap that might be of help to others in the Cirrus fleet. Until we have a Cirrus Owners Group, this is the best format for safety and sharing.
A. Alexander
Tim,
Thanks for the good data about the T182RG being less bad in ice than an SR22. That’s certainly supported by what others have posted in this forum.
However I’m puzzled by your and others strong prescriptions not to get into icing. Every posting I’ve read with something to say on this has said emphatically that they would treat ice in on an SR2x as a dangereous thing. Personally, I’d consider it an emergency and I’ve said that here. But your post says “Rob, don’t do it!”. Tim, buddy, I wouldn’t fly into known icing just like I wouldn’t practice loops at low level at night in the mountains (or whatever).
Just to calibrate here – now you guys might think I’m a sissy – but I don’t fly parachutelss singles at night. I take a twin (and when I get my SR22, I’ll take that). And even then, I try to make the take-off when there is still a little light just in case of the dreaded single engine failure in the few seconds between rotation and gear all the way up. I add 500’ to approach minima (e.g., for a normal ILS decision height of 700’). I normally fly with another pilot (my wife). I know the mechanics who work on the planes that I fly. I do my six instrument approaches every two or three months instead of six. I get higher ratings than I need. I’m getting what I believe is the safest plane made today. And so on. This is some of the stuff I do in attempt to make it from fatherhood to great-granddadhood :-).
One request: let’s not get into the single vs. twin debate :-). And if you can’t resist, please say whether you fly muliengnine planes or not.
Rob
PS. I don’t want to flame anyone in particular here, but it does seem like the reading comprehension by a few folks on this list is kind of low. I guess some of these topics elicit emotion and when one is emotional, it is hard to control the plane, err, the pen.
PPS. Before you pass judgement on Field Morey, please at least read what he has to say, at www.ifrwest.com.
Rob,
the 182 is a combination of high power (235 hp) and an old fashioned wing design. She sure can fly with up to 1/2 inch of ice. I WOULD NOT recommend this in any plane with a laminar wing design. Such planes, like the SR20, need to maintain a long flow of laminar air to ensure for lift, and will rapidly slow down with any additional drag. When I picked up mine in Duluth, they told that they had an icing encounter in some SR20 which reduced the max speed to 100 or so - and then the icy tail stalled first. Don’t do it!
Timm Preusser
Your question is an excellent one. And I appreciate the answers you got from current Cirrus owners with data.
I’d like to respectfully disagree with the other posters, some of whom I’m sure have many times my experience, who say “never fly in icing conditions”.
I finished my instrument rating with Field Morey (www.ifrwest.com). I highly recommend taking instrument flying lessons from Field.
One of the things that we did was to fly in icing conditions in his T182RG with a hot prop and nothing else in the way of de-ice (of course it has a heated pitot). As the ice built, Field had the other student (I was in back - rats) stall the plane. We noted the increase in stall speed and he made the point that most pilots know that one must carry a higher approach speed when carrying ice. We then descended into warmer air and landed.
Was this a useful learning experience? Yes. I’ll certainly remember the lesson. Was it scary? No. Was it unsafe? I believe that it was not. Field would never do this unless he had a huge amount of warm air below him to melt the ice. Would I do this on my own? No.
I believe that under some conditions, with some pilots, it is not an emergency to accumulate some ice. I would not fly into known icing. If I got into those conditions by accident, I’d treat it as an emergency. But what is not OK for me is not necessarily not OK for all pilots.
Also, Rick asked for information on the characteristics of the aircraft with ice. That would be useful information to have even if you, like me, wouldn’t fly into it on purpose. I.e., even if is an emergency to you – especially if it is an emergency – it is good to know what to expect in the way of changed flight characteristics.
So, does anyone else have some experience with ice on SR20’s?
Rob, waiting for SR22 #38
I recall a post some time ago wherein the owner said he lost about 5 knots [did I get that right?] in rain. Wow!
Hello Bill,
Very possible. I had an AA5A, when I encountered rain, the plane would lose 200ft of altitute and about 5+ on the speed. Common with airplanes that do not have 1000 rivets on the wing. The airplane is very efficient because it is smooth, when you disturb the airflow you have to pay for it. On a Lancair 320 with several bugs on the leading edge you can fly 10 mph slower then when clean. For some people this is something new because they never flown a slick airplane. Have a great day.
Woor
Just had my first ice encounter with N163CD. Now I do not want to enter into a debate about ice or risk management. Personally, I do my best to avoid ice and to always have an out if there is a possiblility of icing (ie., the ability to turn back, go higher or lower). In this case, I was IFR in the clouds from PSP to MYF at 10,000ft when I noticed rime ice growing on the leading edges. Tops were at about 11,000 feet; I had mountains below. The options were to turn back or go higher. As I was about to ask for higher, I hit an area of broken clouds and the ice came and went fairly rapidly. Airspeed fluctuated by about 10kts while cruising at 150kts indicated. The ice was easy to see as it began to form near the wing cuff; also, forward visibility was lost as the ice stuck to the windscreen. I was able to decend in and out of broken clouds to MYF, at about 3500ft. the ice was gone.
I recall a post some time ago wherein the owner said he lost about 5 knots [did I get that right?] in rain. Wow!
I’m now wondering about performance in icing conditions. As a guy who flies in the “ice belt” – Ohio, lee of the Great Lakes – this is a real issue. “Icing performance” is of particular interest to those of us who DO use our planes in the winter. [Please, no flames about avoiding ice, etc. I accept all such wisdom as fact!]
I’d like to hear of some experiences. I’m kinda wondering if I made a mistake buying a “fair WX [no ice]” airplane. I’m kinda expecting greatly reduced winter utility/usability compared to my C182! (Which is also why I didn’t buy a Mooney!)
SO, will the SR20 haul 0-1/8", 1/2-3/4", of ice – or what? ;>>