Info re Accident

Any updates on the Minnesota accident?

I’m still struggling with “problem with a pressure gauge.” Bad vacuum system? Oil pressure problem? Low manifold pressure?

I can’t think of a pressure gauge in and of itself causing an accident.

This is very relevant for all of us.

Andy

Could it be fuel pressure… lack of it

My guess is the pilot forgot to reset the standby vacuum breaker, lost a vacuum pump, and had trouble controlling the plane in IMC, recovered uder a low overcast, and put in the field. Strictly a guess.

Any updates on the Minnesota accident?

I’m still struggling with “problem with a pressure gauge.” Bad vacuum system? Oil pressure problem? Low manifold pressure?

I can’t think of a pressure gauge in and of itself causing an accident.

This is very relevant for all of us.

Andy

Just heard from another second hand source that the plane was part of a leasing program in the Twin Cities. Apparently, it had just had an oil change and it’s probable that a loose bolt resulted in complete loss of oil. The pilot circled several times over a farmhouse looking for a suitable landing site and then went in hard. Engine came through firewall, but injuries seem remarkably minor. That’s all I’ve heard. I don’t know how close that is to the truth.

Hi y’all –

NTSB preliminary report is available on the NTSB website. Their investigation found that engine was out of oil, the oil drain cap was missing, and there was no safety wire or damage to the threads of the oil port. The obvious inference is that drain plug was not safety wired by whoever performed the most recent oil change, the plug worked its way loose, and the loss of engine oil led to the obvious result. Incidentally, we are told that imc prevailed. Both pilot and passenger’s injuries are described as “serious.”

The implications for the Cirrus community point both ways. On the poositive, Cirrus would seem not to be implicated in the loss of oil – any plane will lose an engine, if the oil drain plug is not adequately secured.

However, there are some negative implications, also. First, it would seem that (especially in imc) this would have been an occasion to use the parachute. I think the apparent reluctance to use the parachute is natural, in view of the fact that it totals the airplane and takes away all control from the pilot. Most of us feel that when push comes to shove, we can put a plane down safely in a field, so that it must be really difficult to pull that lever, when you feel that you will be able to save the plane just by doing a decent soft field landing. So, one serious implication for the Cirrus community would seem to be that the indications for pulling the lever need to be very clearly defined, and then drilled and practiced, so that a pilot in an emergency situation does not have to make a decision – he or she needs simply to follow specific operating procedures.

Second, the report suggests substantial damage to tthe plane and its occupants from the landing. The report is too sketchy to draw any hard conclusions, but the apparent loss of cockpit integrity is very concerning. Of course, we don’t know the nature of the impact, or any of the details of either the crash, or of the injuries to the occupants. Maybe the injuries was only technically “serious.” and, in fact, both occupants have survived. But until more information is available about the details of the impact and the injury, it seems to me that there is at least some basis for concern.

I, for one, would be very interested in hearing more about the details of the impact and the injuries. And, it goes without saying that I (and I am sure all of us) wish the occupants a speeedy recovery.

Peter Simon

There are some

Any updates on the Minnesota accident?

I’m still struggling with “problem with a pressure gauge.” Bad vacuum system? Oil pressure problem? Low manifold pressure?

I can’t think of a pressure gauge in and of itself causing an accident.

This is very relevant for all of us.

Andy

Good point. And one cause of lack of fuel pressure could be lack of fuel. That would bode better for Cirrus owners than some of the alternatives.

Andy

Could it be fuel pressure… lack of it

Another bad guess.

Could it be fuel pressure… lack of it

Believe the ABOVE post by Jim Grotting to be correct.

Believe the ABOVE post by Jim Grotting to be correct.
Hi Dean – for clarification:

Do you believe this for process-of-deduction, logical-probabilities reasons?

Or do you have some extra info to support this hypothesis? Not challenging your conclusion, just looking for info.

In reportorial mode, I note the continual stream of messages from Gordy L, who: (a) says he saw the event, (b) says that various other hypotheses are wrong, and © says “you’re getting warmer!” on the theme of running out of gas. So his interpretation is clear. Since he feels he can’t give more details himself, we’ll see sooner or later whether he’s pointing in the right direction or not.

Actually I spoke to a friend of a friend of a friend who told me what the NTSB report nowwas going to say and now says PER Peter Simon’s post above.

Namely, oil loss due to human error - not safety wiring the plug. Oi!

Dean

PS - Jim, I do believe you were a journalist asking someone to reveal their source… :slight_smile:

In reportorial mode, I note the continual stream of messages from Gordy L, who: (a) says he saw the event, (b) says that various other hypotheses are wrong, and © says “you’re getting warmer!” on the theme of running out of gas. So his interpretation is clear. Since he feels he can’t give more details himself, we’ll see sooner or later whether he’s pointing in the right direction or not.

or maybe Gordy just wants to engage in 20 questions!

From the preliminary report:

"An examination of the engine revealed 3 punctures in the top of the crankcase at cylinders number 1, 2, and 4. A 2-inch diameter piece of the crankcase rested on top of the engine. The oil drain plug was absent. The threads at the oil drain port showed no damage or evidence of safety wiring. The oil dip stick and oil filter showed heat damage. A film of oil was observed on the firewall. There was no evidence of oil in the engine.

An examination of the remaining airplane systems revealed no anomalies."

Actually I spoke to a friend of a friend of a friend who told me what the NTSB report nowwas going to say and now says PER Peter Simon’s post above.

Namely, oil loss due to human error - not safety wiring the plug. Oi!

Dean

PS - Jim, I do believe you were a journalist asking someone to reveal their source… :slight_smile:

Not even close!!

My guess is the pilot forgot to reset the standby vacuum breaker, lost a vacuum pump, and had trouble controlling the plane in IMC, recovered uder a low overcast, and put in the field. Strictly a guess.

Not very.

Any updates on the Minnesota accident?

I’m still struggling with “problem with a pressure gauge.” Bad vacuum system? Oil pressure problem? Low manifold pressure?

I can’t think of a pressure gauge in and of itself causing an accident.

This is very relevant for all of us.

Andy

Just heard from another second hand source that the plane was part of a leasing program in the Twin Cities. Apparently, it had just had an oil change and it’s probable that a loose bolt resulted in complete loss of oil. The pilot circled several times over a farmhouse looking for a suitable landing site and then went in hard. Engine came through firewall, but injuries seem remarkably minor. That’s all I’ve heard. I don’t know how close that is to the truth.